Michael Brown's family should apologize to Darren Wilson, not sue him

[jackfaire]

Why did your son rob a convenience store, wrestle with a cop, attempt to take his weapon, then advance toward the cop? Also, why did you not call for your neighbors and friends to stand down from destroying your neighborhood instead of fanning the flames of racist hatred just because the cop was white?

If you say that to any family and plug in any combination of things and say it to their faces and you will be lucky if the answer is only "Because he killed our son asshole" and not just punching you in the face.

Honestly the biggest problem with this thread is the attempt to blame the family for literally everything done by other people.

When my dad died my family was freaking devastated. The family was barely able to focus on burying my dad and dealing with all of that stuff. If a bunch of other people decided my dad's death had deserved riots that would not have in anyway have been our fault. We can't blame the Brown family for every little thing that happens because their son was killed.

Nor can we blame them for the crimes their son committed. It's completely missing the point.

Look not every single cop shooting a victim goes to a grand jury. Only in cases where it's under questionable circumstances. Instead of pretending this was just a cop doing his job acknowledge that those in charge of enforcing the law felt the circumstances were questionable enough to do more than an after action report.

The Brown family is only responsible for filing this civil suit a suit they are fully justified in filing because someone killed their son and anyone else would be in a jail cell right now.

Given the exact same circumstances anyone else would be serving jail time if self defense couldn't be proven. If the person was only able afford a public defender you can bet self defense would not be proven.

The Browns want it proven to their satisfaction that their son was lawfully killed and not just gunned down in the latest of police shootings to target black youth.

You want the riots to stop and for Darren Wilson to be cleared this civil trial has to happen. Or he's guilty as sin of wrongdoing and got away with murder.

There is video tape of coops flat out killing black people because "He's big and he's black so I fear for my life" even when the people were visibly complying.

This isn't some random attack on "White" cops this is a demand of an overhaul on the whole system to make it so if incidents like this do happen there are no need for Grand Juries because the actions of everyone involved were beyond reproach.

The Browns are what supposed to face palm and go "Oh hey sure we are grieving the loss of a family member who to us was that guy who told that funny joke at Thanksgiving or helped me fix my porch or" any other number of personal anecdotes that make Michael Brown a real person and not just some crook in a dime store novel. "but we should really focus our time not on getting justice or making sure everything's above board but rather go out and tell people who are legitimately scared that it's okay that they shouldn't be scared even though the fact is they totally should be"

My 14 year old daughter could walk through a field with an airsoft gun playing capture the flag with a bunch of other kids and the cops will just tell them "hey kids it's getting late get on home"

Because she's white. If she were black odds are she would be shot first and only then would the cops figure out "oh wait not real" because black, white, asian, etc no matter what race they are cops are taught if the person's black you shoot first and ask questions later.

No one gives 2 shits that it's a white cop. They care that it's a cop. James Chase was white and there were protests and rallys because it was a cop. Not because it was a white cop and a white guy.

People are losing their shit because your skin color shouldn't be why the police helicopter pilot thinks a guy in khakis and a button up is dangerous.

People who want to focus on it being a white cop mostly want to play the "Well really it's a black racist against white" No it's Black against Blue. That uniform scares the shit out of any part of the population that the police are trained to see as dangerous. This includes all minorities.

Did you know Gays are disproportionally targeted by the police too? Two guys throwing rocks at the brick wall of a building trying to scare a bird get seen on a security camera by security guy who knows it's a gay club across the street calls the cops. Instead of the standard one cop car showing up to tell the kids to knock it off three cop cars show up parking so that they are surrounding the kids with the obvious threat of "run and we will shoot you" suddenly very present.

I nearly pissed my pants. Trust me the Browns have more important things than to lie to everyone else and tell them nothing's wrong.

[Estil]

Look, I am very well aware of the rules of criminal procedure and that acquittal doesn't neccesairly mean innocent. I should clarify that based on the evidence so far, in my view, it is far more likely than not (this is the preponderance of evidence standard mind you; it's more likely than not that the case of the one with the burden of proof, the accuser is true) that Wilson did not commit police brutality and most definitely was not a racist, as the BLM/Brown activists jumped to conclusions and insisted from the very start. Yes, I can certainly understand that of course the Brown family is all messed up inside from losing their son (I'm sure my birth mom was when my little brother (I was adopted but he stayed with my birth mom) was convicted of murder...so whether the family of the victim or the family of the murderer it's about as big a blow emotionally as you can get). So yes I'll definitely cut the Brown family some slack on that, and it wasn't like they were directly responsible for the the rioting and such, but IIRC they didn't exactly distance themselves from it either.

And IIRC, wasn't everything that was presented to the grand jury released to the public afterwards? So what is it that we still don't know and we will or might know in this civil trial? And yes, if the Brown family insists on going through with this, I hope it further vindicates Wilson and shows just how stupid and foolish the actions of the BLM/Brown activists were in smearing and jumping to conclusions who by all counts was a good officer and a good man (and did nothing to even suggest he was a racist). He was nothing like OJ and even suggesting there's a connection/similarity is absurd.

[Estil]

Now, yes, there are conflicting accounts as to what happened next. Some say Brown had his hands up to surrender, and others say he was approaching Wilson threateningly. I cannot say what actually happened, and given the conflicting reports, I don't think anyone can say for certain. The DOJ decided the accounts saying he did not have his hands up were more credible than the other accounts, and I can understand why people find that decision dubious, given the DOJ's conflict of interest in the case.

Precisely why both the Brown activists and the ones from the Duke lacross incident should not have so quickly jumped to conclusions and ASSumed that white on black must mean not only they did it, but it was done out of racism, and that is must be a hate crime. That is precisely why I at first withheld judgement until more came out about this.

In both cases they were dead, dead wrong to jump to conclusions so quickly only to find out in both cases the accused in both cases were factually innocent.

[Andrew B]

Precisely why both the Brown activists and the ones from the Duke lacross incident should not have so quickly jumped to conclusions and ASSumed that white on black must mean not only they did it, but it was done out of racism, and that is must be a hate crime. That is precisely why I at first withheld judgement until more came out about this.

In both cases they were dead, dead wrong to jump to conclusions so quickly only to find out in both cases the accused in both cases were factually innocent.

Except for one problem. Wilson wasn't declared Not Guilty. He wasn't indicted to begin with.

[TheHuckster]

In both cases they were dead, dead wrong to jump to conclusions so quickly only to find out in both cases the accused in both cases were factually innocent.

No, not factually innocent. There is still doubt, given the different accounts by witnesses, as to what happened.

[jackfaire]

And IIRC, wasn't everything that was presented to the grand jury released to the public afterwards? So what is it that we still don't know and we will or might know in this civil trial? .[/I]

Yes it was. As to the second question whatever the prosecutor didn't present to the Grand Jury.

I have said it before and I will say it again. The prosecutor is under no legal obligation to present all of the evidence there is to a Grand Jury if he doesn't want to.

That brings us back to the fact this prosecutor works with that cop. Now the prosecutor can't destroy evidence that would be illegal but not letting the jury see it legal as hell.

Everyone knows this. Everyone knows this isn't some special prosecutor brought in from the other side of the country. This is the same Prosecutor that has to rely on Darren Wilson's testimonies to do his own job. So the odds that he would put forth the evidence needed for it to be taken to trial is unlikely.

If it goes to trial and Darren Wilson gets off he will never give a good testimony for that prosecutor again and his buddies will do the same costing the prosecutor his job.

This makes it a better option for the Prosecutor to just not present evidence. Sure saying "well here's all of the evidence that was presented" sounds like transparency. It's not.

In unrelated non - cop involved crimes people have been later found innocent based on a piece of evidence that for some usually bullshit reason was declared inadmissible or the defense attorney didn't know existed because he was a public defender and has like 5 minutes to review each file and missed the piece of evidence that proved that client was innocent.

People are very trial savvy. This is why there is the feeling that more evidence could come out at a Civil Trial. FOIA ensures that anything presented at the Grand Jury would be released one way or the other doing it without prompting is kind of fishy as hell. It reads more as a "don't look behind the curtain" but it could also just be someone being "Here look we aren't trying to hide anything"

That's what the civil trial will show. The prosecutor legally has to hand over the case file to the Attorney's for the civil trial. While counsel for the defense is not going to be eager to submit damning evidence that we never saw. The counsel for the plaintiff will submit EVERYTHING if Everything is just what we have seen already then Darren Wilson will be vindicated and that will be that. But if evidence is presented that proves wrongdoing then judgement will be for the Browns.

Either way justice will be served.

And a side note.


You're logic seems to be that instead of being racism against the victims the racism is against the shooters. "Well people are only gunning for Darren Wilson because he's white"


"Earlier this week, Keith Lamont Scott, who was black, was shot by a black police officer in Charlotte. " From the Skimm


According to that logic the response to Keith Lamont Scott being shot was "Stay at home everyone he was shot by a black man so it's cool"

But nope the response was

"Two nights of violent protests led the city’s mayor to impose a curfew. Last night’s protests were mostly peaceful."

Huh you think maybe it's not the color of Darren Wilson's skin that has people losing their shit and maybe just the fact he's a Cop with a badge and a gun. Wow I guess it is.

That's the thing you seem to fail to grasp no one gives two fucks that Darren is white. It's completely and utterly irrelevant. What is relevant is that if Michael Brown had been white it wouldn't have been bullets used to take him down. There would have been a taser or given that everyone's pointed out that everything says that Michael Brown walked a distance away before turning to come back that a non-lethal takedown not only would have been possible but would have been used you know unless you went into a blind panic and categorized Black Men on the same danger scale as oh I dunno say Zombies.

and it's been proven time and time again that even Black People have had a bad reaction to strange black people not because "WE feel like victims" but because the predominantly white media has been telling them for decades "You're dangerous"

Hell we took Dangerous Minds a "true story" and killed off a character whose real life counterpart is alive and well with a wife, kids and a steady job.

The cops now working the streets were raised on a steady diet of "Black is Dangerous" Every white kid character who in the show/movie they are in was raised in the inner city and reflects the culture is referred to as "acting black"

Black people raised in the suburbs who reflect that culture are referred to as "Acting White"

We have tried to hammer it into people's heads for years "Black is Dangerous Inner City thugs no matter where they are from"

So it's not surprising that a generation of multi-ethnic police are quicker to pull the trigger on black men than any other race for the same crimes/actions.

[s_stabeler]

the fundamental issue is that it seems self-defense- when applied to cops- seems to be being treated far too much like a magic bullet. It is an Affirmative Defense- the COP must prove they had a REASONABLE fear for their life. Far too often, it seems, it must be proven they did not. shooting somebody is supposed to be a last resort- far too often it seems to be a first resort. Was Michael Brown an angel? No- he committed armed robbery not that long before the shooting. However, while he may well have been running back for another attempt at Officer Wilson's gun, there are other options- like his Taser- which he could have used. He should have, rather than shooting Brown.

[Gravekeeper]

the fundamental issue is that it seems self-defense- when applied to cops- seems to be being treated far too much like a magic bullet. It is an Affirmative Defense- the COP must prove they had a REASONABLE fear for their life. Far too often, it seems, it must be proven they did not. shooting somebody is supposed to be a last resort- far too often it seems to be a first resort. Was Michael Brown an angel? No- he committed armed robbery not that long before the shooting. However, while he may well have been running back for another attempt at Officer Wilson's gun, there are other options- like his Taser- which he could have used. He should have, rather than shooting Brown.

I remember all the bs about how Brown was just so big and scary and invincible to bullets with a demonic stare so poor Officer Wilson just had to shoot cus he stood no chance at fighting off Black Hulk.

"When I grabbed him, the only way I can describe it is I felt like a five-year-old holding Hulk Hogan…that's just how big he felt and how small I felt from grasping his arm." said poor 6'4, 210lb Officer Wilson.

[TheHuckster]

I remember all the bs about how Brown was just so big and scary and invincible to bullets with a demonic stare so poor Officer Wilson just had to shoot cus he stood no chance at fighting off Black Hulk.

"When I grabbed him, the only way I can describe it is I felt like a five-year-old holding Hulk Hogan…that's just how big he felt and how small I felt from grasping his arm." said poor 6'4, 210lb Officer Wilson.

To be fair, Brown was 6' 4" and 294 lb.

[jackfaire]

To be fair, Brown was 6' 4" and 294 lb.

LMAO wow. Yeah I am 5'7 and even I have fought guys that much bigger than me. I didn't feel like a 5 year old attacking the Hulk.

If you're so week as to feel like that because what? Then you shouldn't be a cop.

[Gravekeeper]

To be fair, Brown was 6' 4" and 294 lb.

I was being fair. A weight difference doesn't equal "I felt like a child trying to wrestle Hulk Hogan". Cop's aren't trained to only fight in their weight class and totally helpless outside of it. Wilson described Brown as some sort of unstoppable super villain:

“had the most aggressive face. That’s the only way I can describe it, it looks like a demon, that’s how angry he looked.”

“At this point it looked like he was almost bulking up to run through the shots, like it was making him mad that I’m shooting at him. And that face that he had was looking straight through me, like I wasn’t even there, I wasn’t even anything in his way.”

He made “a grunting, like aggravated sound,” Wilson said. “I’ve never seen anybody look that, for lack of a better word, crazy,” he explained. “I’ve never seen that. I mean, it was very aggravated … aggressive, hostile … You could tell he was looking through you. There was nothing he was seeing.”

[Estil]

To say that you're only supposed to use a taser for someone who tried to grab your gun and clearly intended to use it to kill you if given half a chance is a joke. That's quite easy to say for someone who's on the sidelines and never had to face any real threat on their life like Darren Wilson did.

And there is no evidence to even suggest any kind of racism was involved, or any suggestion that Darren Wilson had anything against anyone of any color. The fact is, if you are stupid enough to try to take an officer's gun and use it against him, then you deserve to have your head blown off.

As for "well what about this other incident and that other incident"? This is about the Darren Wilson incident only. And is it just as if not more clear than the Duke lacross case that an innocent person/people are being wrongly smeared as a racist and a criminal and they don't deserve it. But I suppose that's "acceptable collateral damage" for the BLM types :P

[Gravekeeper]

That's quite easy to say for someone who's on the sidelines and never had to face any real threat on their life like Darren Wilson did.

<raises hand> I have had a gun to my head before, you?

And there is no evidence to even suggest any kind of racism was involved, or any suggestion that Darren Wilson had anything against anyone of any color. The fact is, if you are stupid enough to try to take an officer's gun and use it against him, then you deserve to have your head blown off.

Aside from his textbook "super negro" invocation. Oh, and that little thing where the DoJ investigated his department and found out that the entire force was systematically violating the Constitutional rights of African Americans on a routine basis.

Other than that though, yeah, no evidence.

[jackfaire]

To say that you're only supposed to use a taser for someone who tried to grab your gun and clearly intended to use it to kill you if given half a chance is a joke.

You think police training is a joke? No no don't argue that's literally what you just said because using the TAZER to take down the UNARMED person who has to rush you to get said gun is HOW THEY ARE BLOODY TRAINED! That's why there was a Grand Jury in the first place he didn't follow procedure and they investigated why.

Grand Jury's aren't just thrown together because someone asked really nice if a cop could please get convicted for doing their job. They are only even put together when a cop does his job in a way not according to his training and in a way that is questionable.

You want to leave race completely out of this fine.

Darren Wilson did his job wrong a man died as a result.

I don't give a shit if Darren Wilson is black and Michael Brown is white.

In fact literally the only things I have been arguing are the information in this thread because it's all I needed that and my knowledge of the procedure needed to charge and prosecute a cop for a crime and why it's not likely.

The only reason Estil that I know Michael Brown is Black and Darren Wilson is white is because you wont' shut up about it. It's all you bloody talk about. So far all of your arguments have boiled down to "Michael Brown was black so it was okay that Darren Wilson violated police procedure during the arrest and that procedure is stupid anyway"

My argument isn't about the color of his skin. Hell I haven't even brought up WHY Darren Wilson violated police procedure WHY he felt his training wouldn't work for a pretty standard situation.

The TAZER is specifically there for situations like being rushed for your firearm. When PCP became a problem they needed ways to stop people that wouldn't respond to anything short of being shot.

Plain and Simple this is about a Cop killing a Civilian in a manner that doesn't fit the Training Manual. I have not read said cops testimony, looked at evidence that was submitted or done any research beyond what I already know.

If you don't want Race to be the central point of this conversation then stop making it the central point of this conversation.

For me here is how this conversation has been going.

"Michael Brown's Family should apologize for wanting a fair trial instead of trusting the Grand Jury findings of his drinking buddies"

"Well actually they shouldn't a Grand Jury is full of people that can't vote for a trial or it will hurt their careers since they work with Darren and the cops in his precinct"

"He's not a racist they should apologize"

"Uhm okay I didn't say he was but good to know. Like I said it was a biased Grand Jury...."


"It't snot because he's racist"

ON and ON and ON and ON.

I don't give two flying fucks WHY he violated his training the proper standard method for stopping a rushing unarmed suspect. That's not even the topic of this Thread. The entire premise for the thread is that the family who did nothing wrong should apologize to a cop who did do something wrong for killing their son when he is trained in multiple take down, Hand to Hand, and TAZER methods of subduing a suspect.

They are completely 100% in the right to insist on a civil trial where it will be ran fairly and all evidence will be included. Anyone saying that Darren Wilson shouldn't go to trial for violating police training is a racist who wants it to be okay for an officer to violate that training if the suspect was black.

A Grand Jury is neither a trial nor fair and unbiased. The majority of the Police agree that the procedures for Grand Jury's need to be completely rewritten to make them more transparent and remove any perception of bias.

Most cases of a police shooting where the officer violated procedure again the procedure that you call a joke result in a Grand Jury which result in nothing which result in civil trials because the joke is thinking that a Grand Jury can or did resolve anything when even the Police have acknowledged that it does not.

So let me boil it down for you

In the argument you claim to want to make where race has nothing to do with it Darren Wilson did one of two things

1) Panicked during a situation he had trained over and over and over and over for and thus needs to have his suitability as a police officer re-examined regardless of what a trial turns up. As a panicky officer/soldier/security guard is a bed see before. Plain and simple if you panic in what is a routine situation and yes being rushed is routine then it raises questions of competency.

2) Has decided that police procedure like you said, is a joke, and he is just going to do things his way regardless of what he is trained to what the law that he is sworn to uphold says he should do doesn't apply to him and that instead he is going to be a vigilante. Well then he should turn in his badge and his gun and go off to play batman because he doesn't belong on the force.

So there you go. When it comes down to it Estil you have to decide if your spouse, kid or parent mixes up some meds they bring you by accident and you end up rushing a cop would you rather he follow procedure and take you down? Or shoot you because ya know procedure is a joke.

[mjr]

LMAO wow. Yeah I am 5'7 and even I have fought guys that much bigger than me. I didn't feel like a 5 year old attacking the Hulk.

If you're so week as to feel like that because what? Then you shouldn't be a cop.

Wasn't Darren Wilson in his patrol car when Michael Brown was going after him?

Constricted space, the person outside the vehicle would have a distinct advantage there, wouldn't they?