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Politicians vs Science & Math
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Old 11-06-2019, 02:59 AM
mjr mjr is offline
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Default Politicians vs Science & Math

Conservatives and Republicans are often told that they "don't believe in science".

With some of the proposals I've seen by some of the Democratic candidates, and by some of those in Congress, I have to wonder if they believe in math.

Maybe they do. But maybe it's the Abbott & Costello kind:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xkbQDEXJy2k

Or maybe it's the kind where you can "prove" that 1 = 0.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ZpUjcLJEqw

Because there's no way that, with all the "free" stuff being promised, that the math adds up. It just doesn't.

So how WILL they make it work? Elizabeth Warren's plan isn't feasible. The math just isn't there.

Republicans aren't any better. They spend like drunk sailors on a weekend pass, too.
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  #2  
Old 11-06-2019, 06:52 PM
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It may be a good idea to give the president a line-item veto so Senator Jerk can't slip legislation into a bill to build a statue of themselves in front the state capitol, even if it means giving it to the current president.
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Old 11-06-2019, 11:02 PM
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The conservative politicians probably do believe in science. It's just that it doesn't personally benefit them to follow science so they just claim it's untrue and try to convince their voter base of that so they can continue to have their wallets lined by their lobbyists.

And only conservatives claim Democrats are advertising free stuff. Democrats and liberals know quite well that healthcare will cost money. It's just yet another tactic by conservatives to anger their voter base by saying Democrats want free stuff. Universal healthcare is 100% feasible. Most countries do it no problem. We'd just be cutting out the middle man reducing one source of inflated prices and force medical providers to not drastically overinflate the prices of their services. No more $150 for an IV bag or $1,000 for someone to fix a prescription up. Go back to charging what the service actually costs and not 10,000 what it really costs.
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Last edited by MadMike; 11-06-2019 at 11:40 PM. Reason: We've already read it, thanks.
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Old 11-07-2019, 12:39 AM
mjr mjr is offline
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Quote:
And only conservatives claim Democrats are advertising free stuff.
Well, many Democrats are using the word "free"...as in "free universal healthcare", or "free college".

And, to that end, it actually will be "free" for anyone whose taxes won't go up to pay for it. Correct? Which, I believe, taxes will go up on everyone "middle class" and higher.

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We'd just be cutting out the middle man reducing one source of inflated prices and force medical providers to not drastically overinflate the prices of their services. No more $150 for an IV bag or $1,000 for someone to fix a prescription up. Go back to charging what the service actually costs and not 10,000 what it really costs.
Ok. How? And putting hundreds of thousands of people out of jobs in the process. And who's to say it won't end up like the VA system, or worse? Do you think if we had "universal" healthcare that the government wouldn't try to exercise MORE control over us? If the government has complete and total control over our healthcare, don't you think it stands to reason that they could (eventually) dictate to us what and how much to eat, and how often to exercise, and what minimum types of exercise to get? And if you don't, maybe you get fined or something.

Ask yourself this: Do you trust Congress to make these decisions?

Last edited by mjr; 11-07-2019 at 12:55 AM.
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Old 11-07-2019, 04:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mjr View Post

And, to that end, it actually will be "free" for anyone whose taxes won't go up to pay for it. Correct? Which, I believe, taxes will go up on everyone "middle class" and higher.
The middle class is already subsidizing tax breaks for corporations. If I have to pay for "free stuff", I'd rather have it go to the needy than the greedy.
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Old 11-08-2019, 12:32 AM
mjr mjr is offline
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Originally Posted by MadMike View Post
The middle class is already subsidizing tax breaks for corporations. If I have to pay for "free stuff", I'd rather have it go to the needy than the greedy.
What is "greed" in this context?

Is it an income level? A behavior? What makes a corporation greedy? What makes a person greedy? Is Bill Gates greedy?

What about the jealous? Or the, "It's not fair you have more than me, so some of it should be redistributed to me." argument?

Last edited by mjr; 11-08-2019 at 12:41 AM.
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Old 11-08-2019, 02:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mjr View Post
Well, many Democrats are using the word "free"...as in "free universal healthcare", or "free college".

And, to that end, it actually will be "free" for anyone whose taxes won't go up to pay for it. Correct? Which, I believe, taxes will go up on everyone "middle class" and higher.
No, Republicans are calling it free. Democrats are calling it Universal Healthcare. Public education. Stop monetizing necessities.

Maybe if the uber rich didn't get to skip out on taxes and have the middle class pay for the welfare of the uber rich's employees that are paid diddly squat and aren't being given basic benefits by their employers, the middle class wouldn't get taxed to death. The problem isn't the bottom 50 percent not paying enough taxes. It's the top few percent who pay about jack squat.

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Originally Posted by mjr View Post
Ok. How? And putting hundreds of thousands of people out of jobs in the process. And who's to say it won't end up like the VA system, or worse? Do you think if we had "universal" healthcare that the government wouldn't try to exercise MORE control over us? If the government has complete and total control over our healthcare, don't you think it stands to reason that they could (eventually) dictate to us what and how much to eat, and how often to exercise, and what minimum types of exercise to get? And if you don't, maybe you get fined or something.

Ask yourself this: Do you trust Congress to make these decisions?
You do realize if suddenly 300 million people are getting their "insurance" through the government, suddenly that's a crap ton of jobs open for those people who work for the blood sucking, rip off insurance companies. And short of Republicans trying to restrict what women can do with their bodies and preventing them from taking ordinary medicine because they don't understand basic anatomy, I don't think it could possibly be any worse than America's shit tier capitalist system in place now.
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Old 11-08-2019, 02:14 AM
mjr mjr is offline
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Originally Posted by Greenday View Post
No, Republicans are calling it free. Democrats are calling it Universal Healthcare. Public education. Stop monetizing necessities.
Semantics.

Quote:
Maybe if the uber rich didn't get to skip out on taxes and have the middle class pay for the welfare of the uber rich's employees that are paid diddly squat and aren't being given basic benefits by their employers, the middle class wouldn't get taxed to death. The problem isn't the bottom 50 percent not paying enough taxes. It's the top few percent who pay about jack squat.
Who are the "uber rich"? I notice that Elizabeth Warren's "wealth tax" proposal starts at a level far above HER wealth. Why do you think that is?

Further, as I've stated many times before, if she's that wealthy, nothing is stopping her from donating large sums of money to help people with healthcare, food, education, etc.

Heck, if I recall correctly, some millionaire guy recently paid for the college education of everyone at a college.


Quote:
You do realize if suddenly 300 million people are getting their "insurance" through the government, suddenly that's a crap ton of jobs open for those people who work for the blood sucking, rip off insurance companies. And short of Republicans trying to restrict what women can do with their bodies and preventing them from taking ordinary medicine because they don't understand basic anatomy, I don't think it could possibly be any worse than America's shit tier capitalist system in place now.
The question here is: How much do you trust our elected representatives? Because that's what you'd have to do -- completely -- to go with the "universal healthcare" model.

You have a valid point vis-a-vis the insurance companies, but I think there could possibly be other ways to "fix" those issues.
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Old 11-08-2019, 07:39 AM
Gravekeeper Gravekeeper is offline
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I like how you're complaining about Whataboutisms in another thread while basing other entire threads on whataboutisms.

As for tired point you're trying to make which is just yet another variation of "Rawr, no one better get free stuff to make their lives better on my dime!"; Do you even know what Warren's plan is or how it will work? I'm guessing not. There are some very valid criticisms to be leveled against her plan but "rawr democrats don't understand mathz" isn't one of them. That's just repeating oft used political bullshit that's been laying around in the sun for decades as is.

It's one of the premier dipshit arguments Republicans make whenever anyone proposes anything that might actually help someone else at the expense of wealthy people's profits.
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Old 11-08-2019, 11:40 AM
mjr mjr is offline
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Originally Posted by Gravekeeper View Post
I like how you're complaining about Whataboutisms in another thread while basing other entire threads on whataboutisms.
In what way? If the math doesn't work, it doesn't work. If you believe the math works, by all means, show me the data with real numbers.

Quote:
Do you even know what Warren's plan is or how it will work? I'm guessing not.
You're correct. I don't. I doubt she does, either. Honestly, I think "Mayor Pete", if I were to vote Democratic, has the more valid approach anyway. After all, if the Democrats are all about "my body, my choice", isn't that was "Mayor Pete" is offering? With Warren's plan, there is no choice. You MUST be on this program.

Quote:
There are some very valid criticisms to be leveled against her plan but "rawr democrats don't understand mathz" isn't one of them. That's just repeating oft used political bullshit that's been laying around in the sun for decades as is.
There's simply not enough "rich people" money to go around. She's re-framing things in the form of "costs". Because every single time she is asked about taxes going up for the middle class, she changes it to "costs". At least Bernie's honest about it.

Quote:
It's one of the premier dipshit arguments Republicans make whenever anyone proposes anything that might actually help someone else at the expense of wealthy people's profits.
So who are these wealthy people? And are there enough of them? And how much of their money are they entitled to?

Bill Gates' net worth is approximately $100 Billion. He does a ton for charity. He pays more in taxes than many of us would see in multiple lifetimes. How much of that $100 billion would he have to give up? Even if he gave up every dollar of it, that is a small fraction of the FIVE TRILLION DOLLARS per year that the plan is anticipated to cost.
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