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  #11  
Old 06-09-2016, 10:09 PM
BrenDAnn BrenDAnn is offline
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First, let me say that what this young man did is beyond deplorable and disgusting. He deserves far more than the three (yes, three, according to the latest news reports) months he'll be serving behind bars. That said, I'm wondering how you all feel about the "picking up the pitchforks and going after him" crowd? The first thing I saw when I got on Facebook yesterday morning, was this article calling for everyone to make Brock Turner's life a living hell, basically, by smearing his name all over and doing nothing short of harassing Brock, his father, and anyone supporting him. While I do agree, as I said, he deserves far more punishment than he received, I have a big problem with the sort of movement in the article there. That problem is that the wrong people get harassed, by virtue of simply having the same name as someone involved. It's already happened. A college professor became the victim of online harassment, because people mistook her for a friend of Brock's who stood up for him. I, myself, feel this sort of thing, while done with good intentions can go too far. I'm just interested in all of your opinions.
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  #12  
Old 06-10-2016, 02:24 AM
Kheldarson Kheldarson is offline
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His apology, btw: http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2...campus-culture
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  #13  
Old 06-10-2016, 09:01 AM
Canarr Canarr is offline
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Originally Posted by Kheldarson View Post
I'm not dismissing their efforts. But their effort is part of the growing counter culture, the culture of consent.
I disagree. Rape, along with practically any other violent crime, has been on the decline for decades, well before the introduction of "affirmative consent" or the increased discussion about college culture in the recent years.

This tells me that people, on the whole, are mostly decent and will mostly do the right thing. The existence of criminals, or the occasional insensitive asshole in a position of power, does not change that, and does not constitute a rape culture.

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I'm glad that this is getting attention and I'm glad that we have positive examples of what to do around rape. But it doesn't change that we had a judge basically say that "It's ok to rape if you're drunk". Or rich. Or an athlete. That's a repeated theme in rape/sexual assault cases and that’s a large part of what is meant by rape culture. The crime itself isn't treated like any other crime.
You mean, like driving drunk and killing people?

Being rich and/or successful has always meant special consideration before the law. The word "privilege" goes back to two latin words basically meaning "special right". It's not a good thing, it's not the way it should be in an ideal world, but it's where we are.

Honestly, the US justice system could actually do with a little more consideration of the effect long prison sentences have on first-time offenders. But the judge IMO went too far in the other direction here.

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Originally Posted by BrenDAnn View Post
First, let me say that what this young man did is beyond deplorable and disgusting. He deserves far more than the three (yes, three, according to the latest news reports) months he'll be serving behind bars. That said, I'm wondering how you all feel about the "picking up the pitchforks and going after him" crowd?
I find it despicable. Public shaming is wrong, and not just because sometimes it may catch an innocent person who just happens to share the name of whoever the mob really wanted to hit. It's wrong because it takes the punishment out of the hands of the legal system, where it belongs, and puts it in the hands of whoever just felt like picking up a pitchfork that day.

It simply shouldn't be done.
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  #14  
Old 06-10-2016, 11:04 AM
Kheldarson Kheldarson is offline
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Originally Posted by Canarr View Post

I disagree. Rape, along with practically any other violent crime, has been on the decline for decades, well before the introduction of "affirmative consent" or the increased discussion about college culture in the recent years.

This tells me that people, on the whole, are mostly decent and will mostly do the right thing. The existence of criminals, or the occasional insensitive asshole in a position of power, does not change that, and does not constitute a rape culture.
Rape culture is also in how we treat the victim during the investigation (see the questions of the attorney, the police, etc. about how she may have had a hand in her own rape), it's in how we treat and objectify women (see any commercial ever), it's in how women are trained to behave in public and are punished/insulted for not behaving as they should (see cat-calling and how women are supposed to take it as a compliment).

Cases like this just highlight the problem.

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You mean, like driving drunk and killing people?
Except there's a reason why the outrage was over his sentencing and not how we treat the crime. The sentencing there was so far out of the statistical norm that it called attention to how differently wealth gets you treated.

The issue in this case is that his sentence, while light, isn't unusual. Just not usually with so much hard evidence against him.

What's also disconcerting about the case is the language the rapist uses to apologize for his actions (he keeps blaming alcohol) and the language the judge uses in his sentencing. This is not language with any care or concern for the victim. Which is also typical for rape cases. There is still an underlying idea that "She must have asked for it somehow".

No other types of cases presumes the victim asked for the crime to happen to them.

"You got hit by a drunk driver? Were you going too fast? Were you on the wrong side of the road? Well, you must've ignored a sign then to get hit."



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I find it despicable. Public shaming is wrong, and not just because sometimes it may catch an innocent person who just happens to share the name of whoever the mob really wanted to hit. It's wrong because it takes the punishment out of the hands of the legal system, where it belongs, and puts it in the hands of whoever just felt like picking up a pitchfork that day.

It simply shouldn't be done.
I agree. I hate Internet justice mobs.
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  #15  
Old 06-10-2016, 01:49 PM
Canarr Canarr is offline
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Originally Posted by Kheldarson View Post
Rape culture is also in how we treat the victim during the investigation (see the questions of the attorney, the police, etc. about how she may have had a hand in her own rape), it's in how we treat and objectify women (see any commercial ever), it's in how women are trained to behave in public and are punished/insulted for not behaving as they should (see cat-calling and how women are supposed to take it as a compliment).

Cases like this just highlight the problem.
I saw a Buzzfeed video recently where a couple of women asked (mostly stupid) questions of men; something about "36 questions women want to ask men", or something like that. A couple of Youtubers posted their own videos as replies to it.

One question was: "Why can't I sleep with as many people as I want to without being judged?", and I think it was the Amazing Atheist who simply answered: "Because nobody can do anything without being judged."

Society expects things from us all the time, and it tends to punish us if we don't deliver. That goes for women, men, children, and mostly it's just part of life.

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Originally Posted by Kheldarson View Post
No other types of cases presumes the victim asked for the crime to happen to them.

"You got hit by a drunk driver? Were you going too fast? Were you on the wrong side of the road? Well, you must've ignored a sign then to get hit."
Well... "You were mugged? Well, what were you doing, walking around Central Park at night???". But I concede your point: it does tend to happen more with sexual assault than with any other crimes. Mostly, I'd say, because sexual assault cases are rarely as clean-cut as this one.

When a woman is found half naked behind a dumpster, covered in abrasions, dirt and debris, the idea that she consented to this becomes pretty farfetched. It's my guess that this is the main reason the victim doesn't complain about invasive questioning by the police: it was open and shut.

However, when two people - possibly of different sex - end up drunk in bed together, and one part afterwards claims they didn't consent, things are far less clear - and that is where the difficult questions come up, the doubt, the... well, it's called victim-blaming, but that's really the wrong word for the beginning of an investigation. Because there isn't a victim unless it's been confirmed that a crime was committed.

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Originally Posted by Kheldarson View Post
I agree. I hate Internet justice mobs.
Glad to hear it
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  #16  
Old 06-10-2016, 01:55 PM
Shangri-laschild Shangri-laschild is offline
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Originally Posted by s_stabeler View Post
It's just that I'm not sure that it wasn't a particularly terrible drunken mistake- in which case, a short jail sentence, and forcing him to face up to the fact that he probably shouldn't drink, and making him educate people about what can happen if you drink too much alcohol may well be sufficient.
There needs to be a balance between tossing him in jail and throwing away the key and giving him a sentence that acknowledges the fact that what he did to that woman isn't just going to go away quickly for her. I would be fine with a reasonable jail time and education and counseling for him to teach him to not do this again. But 3-6 months sends the message that what he did was no big deal and whether he maliciously did something horrible or drunkenly did something stupid, what he did was a big deal.

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Originally Posted by s_stabeler View Post
That, and by my read of it, it's the father making the comments justifying his kid's actions, not the kid.
The lawyers defense didn't help and the kid had to have some level of say over how much blame was going to try to be put onto the woman. Not only that but his apology letter heavily goes on about how this has effected him and how it's the fault of party culture in college. I don't know if he was trying to convey that he's sorry by stating how much this is effecting him but the result is that he sounded like he was wallowing in how much all this sucked for him basically. She got mentioned a little but mostly it was about him and how it's all the fault of party culture that when he was all alone, not surrounded by peers and peer pressure, he raped an unconscious woman.
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  #17  
Old 06-10-2016, 02:06 PM
Shangri-laschild Shangri-laschild is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrenDAnn View Post
First, let me say that what this young man did is beyond deplorable and disgusting. He deserves far more than the three (yes, three, according to the latest news reports) months he'll be serving behind bars. That said, I'm wondering how you all feel about the "picking up the pitchforks and going after him" crowd?
On the one hand, hearing all the voices standing up for the woman and speaking out about how rape isn't ok is amazing. Normally you get the "she is a liar who deserves it" side speaking up louder and this time it wasn't as much like that. I love that people are speaking out about all of this. Outside of the torch and pitchfork aspect though, I keep thinking about what must it be like for this woman who now probably can't watch the news or go online without seeing the face of her attacker everywhere. Mob justice is never a smart enough creature to be good about speaking out for injustice more than it is harmful to innocent people.
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  #18  
Old 06-10-2016, 02:50 PM
Kheldarson Kheldarson is offline
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Originally Posted by Canarr View Post

However, when two people - possibly of different sex - end up drunk in bed together, and one part afterwards claims they didn't consent, things are far less clear - and that is where the difficult questions come up, the doubt, the... well, it's called victim-blaming, but that's really the wrong word for the beginning of an investigation. Because there isn't a victim unless it's been confirmed that a crime was committed.
Except they ask questions like "What were you wearing?" "How many other guys have you slept with?" "Are you sure you didn't lead him on?" And, of course, the ultimate favorite "How much did you have to drink?"

The issue with rape is one of consent. What does what a woman wears, or how many men she's slept with before have to do with her consenting to this man? And if she's drunk, then consent can't be had anyway right?

The problem is that the investigations and the defense lawyers end up both acting like one moment can be changed by a history of other behavior. And while the latter is understandable (but still distasteful), the former is what makes it hard to report the crime.

Fair equivalent: Kabe and I were recently robbed. Brand new lawnmower was taken from our shed. Now, yes, our bad for not having a lock. But all that changed was what kind of crime it was going to be listed. There wasn't a question of how our past behavior led to this robbery, or if we had led somebody on to rob us, or if we were sure we had put our lawnmower away.

No, we just were asked when we last saw it, if we had a serial number, and if we had any other info we could share.

If the investigators were to keep it to the relevant facts (and there is movement towards better questions and training) and with the idea that these women are in shock (because cops have been shown to change their behavior when a victim doesn't act "right"), then that would go a long way towards making rape easier to report, prosecute, and, hopefully, something that happens less often because it's harder for rapists to get away with due to their victims being shut down via victim-blaming in the investigation.
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  #19  
Old 06-10-2016, 03:40 PM
mjr mjr is offline
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Originally Posted by Kheldarson View Post

The issue with rape is one of consent.
I agree, but when can consent be withdrawn? I mean, just being around someone isn't consent, I agree.

However, If person A consents to sex with person B, and the act commences, and then person A decides that they no longer want to have sex with this person during the act, can they withdraw consent during the act?

My understanding is that a person can withdraw consent at any time, and the other person must cease immediately, or it's considered rape.

Again, I am not sure if this is a law or what. My understanding is that it is (though I forget where).

Which can really put someone at a disadvantage, knowing that the other party can withdraw consent at any time.
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  #20  
Old 06-10-2016, 03:48 PM
Akasa Akasa is offline
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I saw this on FB:

Rape culture is victim shaming because she was too drunk, then defending the male because his actions were influenced by alcohol.
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