Go Back   Fratching! > General > Politics

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes

  #11  
Old 11-08-2017, 07:44 AM
Canarr Canarr is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 882
Default

Well, the lines between "Black Bloc" and "Antifa" have been very blurry even at the best of times, which makes it fairly difficult to sort them into the good and the bad guys in masks and black.

And yes, there certainly were a lot of instances where people on the right went to protests and rallys with the same equipment and intent to cause havoc; no argument there. If Antifa/Black Bloc have any upside, it's that they mostly attack people of the opposite camp, and leave innocent bystanders alone. Unfortunately, their interpretation of who, exactly, is part of the "Evil Nazi Scum" tends to be very... generous.

In Germany, most of the time they'll be mixing it up with Neo-Nazis and similar rightwingers, who generally have no problems to be dissing out their own load of street violence. However, there have been plenty of opportunities where they gleefully destroyed private shops, bars or stores, not to mention set fire to cars. Just check out some of the videos posted from Hamburg's G20 summit this year.

Personally, I don't see any moral superiority with Antifa compared to whatever flavor of rightwingers they fight locally (Neo-Nazis/alt-right). Both hold extremist views, both believe their position justifies violence towards the opposition, both use intimidation and violence to bring the more centrist majority in line with their demands. They all suck.
__________________
"You are who you are on your worst day, Durkon. Anything less is a comforting lie you tell yourself to numb the pain." - Evil
"You're trying to be Lawful Good. People forget how crucial it is to keep trying, even if they screw it up now and then." - Good
Reply With Quote

  #12  
Old 11-08-2017, 10:14 AM
mjr mjr is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 1,178
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gravekeeper View Post
But going along with the Republican noise machine and making them out to be the latest boogeyman / scapegoat everyone needs to be afraid of doesn't help. It undercuts the entire conversation and pushes away people who might have agreed with you otherwise had you leveled a legitimate criticism.
Oh, please. You guys do this constantly. Heck, look at any "gun control" thread you guys start. You're being sold a bill of goods on the whole "assault rifle", "automatic weapon", and "background check" thing.

Wayne LaPierre himself (the head of that super scary organization called the NRA) actually said it's not a background check problem. It's a system problem.

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLTMkg1RLW0

Quote:
For reference, saying Antifa is as dangerous as colonial America or that it's in any way remotely reasonable to believe they're going to mount an insurrection isn't a legitimate criticism.
For the record, I'm not the one that equated Antifa with colonial America. That was someone else. Most of Antifa is probably anti-gun anyway (makes their job easier). I'm not too worried at this point about Antifa mounting an insurrection. It's not about that. it's about proverbially bringing a gun to a knife fight, as the expression goes.

Quote:
It's disingenuous fear mongering. If you want to discuss Antifa, or indeed any similar issue in the current political climate, you need to rise above such tactics.

Otherwise its all just more noise and the current state of bullshit will continue unabated with everyone flinging shit at each other.
I'd ask you to do the same. I've seen numerous times where you've used similar tactics when attacking a group.
Reply With Quote

  #13  
Old 11-08-2017, 10:52 AM
Canarr Canarr is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 882
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mjr View Post
I'd ask you to do the same. I've seen numerous times where you've used similar tactics when attacking a group.
It doesn't really matter what someone else does; everybody should have their own standards they measure their behavior by. To basically say, "Sure, what I'm doing is shitty; but they're doing it, too!" isn't a particularly great argument.
__________________
"You are who you are on your worst day, Durkon. Anything less is a comforting lie you tell yourself to numb the pain." - Evil
"You're trying to be Lawful Good. People forget how crucial it is to keep trying, even if they screw it up now and then." - Good
Reply With Quote

  #14  
Old 11-08-2017, 10:55 AM
Gravekeeper Gravekeeper is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 4,867
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Canarr View Post
Well, the lines between "Black Bloc" and "Antifa" have been very blurry even at the best of times, which makes it fairly difficult to sort them into the good and the bad guys in masks and black.
Black Bloc has co-opted a lot of it in more recent incidents. But roll back a ways and it was some morons with signs and Soviet t-shirts. It didn't have much if anything to do with Antifa as its understood in Europe. It was basically college kids thinking they were changing the world.

I'm not saying Antifa as it is now is morally superior, however. Just that they aren't the bogeyman they're being used as and those they tend to mix it up with are just as bad and just as willing to fight as they are. Plus a couple steps beyond in a few incidents thus far. Antifa hasn't shot at or killed anyone as of yet.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mjr View Post
Oh, please. You guys do this constantly. Heck, look at any "gun control" thread you guys start. You're being sold a bill of goods on the whole "assault rifle", "automatic weapon", and "background check" thing.
I haven't been around in months and barely posted at all in a couple years now really. So spare me the "you guys".

And fuck LaPierre. He cited violent video games as a cause of Sandy Hook. The man is an asshole. He pushed back on universal background checks even when the majority of members of his own organization ( and the majority of Americans ) supported it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mjr View Post
For the record, I'm not the one that equated Antifa with colonial America. That was someone else. Most of Antifa is probably anti-gun anyway (makes their job easier). I'm not too worried at this point about Antifa mounting an insurrection. It's not about that. it's about proverbially bringing a gun to a knife fight, as the expression goes.
Someone else using your login? I specifically asked in that thread why Antifa had come up and you specifically pointed me to your own post. A post in which you specifically tied Antifa as an example to a point about the dangers of the American frontier. You're also the first one to even mention Antifa in the entire thread.

When I challenged that point by specifically asking you "You brought up Antifa in response to a point about the dangers of the frontier?" to which you responded it was "relevant". Then when I challenged that point you attempted to change the subject a couple of times before accusing me of making a semantic argument. A charge you still have not explained.

So where did I miss the record and if I did miss the record why did you try to defend the record you claim you didn't put forth? Let alone point me right to your own post in response to my original question?


Quote:
Originally Posted by mjr View Post
I'd ask you to do the same. I've seen numerous times where you've used similar tactics when attacking a group.
I know I've been away for a while but do you have any method of debating that is not a whataboutism or an attempt to change the subject?

Last edited by Gravekeeper; 11-08-2017 at 11:02 AM.
Reply With Quote

  #15  
Old 11-08-2017, 01:01 PM
Canarr Canarr is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 882
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gravekeeper View Post
I'm not saying Antifa as it is now is morally superior, however. Just that they aren't the bogeyman they're being used as and those they tend to mix it up with are just as bad and just as willing to fight as they are. Plus a couple steps beyond in a few incidents thus far. Antifa hasn't shot at or killed anyone as of yet.
Well, guess then we're in agreement. No, they're not the boogeyman; but no, they're not good guys, either.
__________________
"You are who you are on your worst day, Durkon. Anything less is a comforting lie you tell yourself to numb the pain." - Evil
"You're trying to be Lawful Good. People forget how crucial it is to keep trying, even if they screw it up now and then." - Good
Reply With Quote

  #16  
Old 11-08-2017, 07:06 PM
mjr mjr is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 1,178
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gravekeeper View Post
And fuck LaPierre. He cited violent video games as a cause of Sandy Hook. The man is an asshole. He pushed back on universal background checks even when the majority of members of his own organization ( and the majority of Americans ) supported it.
Gee, why am I not surprised you responded this way?

Quote:
Someone else using your login? I specifically asked in that thread why Antifa had come up and you specifically pointed me to your own post. A post in which you specifically tied Antifa as an example to a point about the dangers of the American frontier. You're also the first one to even mention Antifa in the entire thread.

When I challenged that point by specifically asking you "You brought up Antifa in response to a point about the dangers of the frontier?" to which you responded it was "relevant". Then when I challenged that point you attempted to change the subject a couple of times before accusing me of making a semantic argument. A charge you still have not explained.

So where did I miss the record and if I did miss the record why did you try to defend the record you claim you didn't put forth? Let alone point me right to your own post in response to my original question?
I don't know why I am even going to try to explain this to you, because I know how this works. Deny all you want, you'll flat out reject what I am about to say.

Part of the right to keep and bear arms is about protection. You and I both know that Antifa here in the U.S. has become violent. And yes, they have. So if a person on the frontier could carry a gun for protection, why can't someone in modern-day society? The principle is the same. But instead of being attacked by a bear or whatever, they're reducing the chance of being attacked by an Antifa thug.


Quote:
I know I've been away for a while but do you have any method of debating that is not a whataboutism or an attempt to change the subject?
I do. With civilized people.
Reply With Quote

  #17  
Old 11-08-2017, 10:34 PM
Greenday's Avatar
Greenday Greenday is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 7,014
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mjr View Post
Gee, why am I not surprised you responded this way?

I don't know why I am even going to try to explain this to you, because I know how this works. Deny all you want, you'll flat out reject what I am about to say.

Part of the right to keep and bear arms is about protection. You and I both know that Antifa here in the U.S. has become violent. And yes, they have. So if a person on the frontier could carry a gun for protection, why can't someone in modern-day society? The principle is the same. But instead of being attacked by a bear or whatever, they're reducing the chance of being attacked by an Antifa thug.

I do. With civilized people.
https://youtu.be/SVOuY7hoqEs

A very good video by Cracked on the piss poor media coverage of Antifa and the Nazis. At any of the rallies where people complained about Antifa going there to pick a fight, they are ignoring the fact that this was the reason the Nazis were there in first place. They SAID they were going there to fight. They SAID they were going there to try to troll people. They went with weapons and body armor. Yet Antifa and there cloth masks get treated worse by the cops and media then those assholes. To quote the video, "If you aren't sure who the bad guy is, ask your self if one of the groups has the word 'Nazi' in their name. They do? They're the bad guy."
__________________
Violence has resolved more conflicts than anything else. The contrary opinion that violence doesn't solve anything is merely wishful thinking at its worst. - Starship Troopers
Reply With Quote

  #18  
Old 11-09-2017, 01:01 AM
Gravekeeper Gravekeeper is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 4,867
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mjr View Post
Gee, why am I not surprised you responded this way?
Responded as one should to someone that looked at a pile of dead children and said "Yeah, this is okay"? LaPierre has no credibility, let alone humanity, and shouldn't be used as a citation in any discussion about gun legislation.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mjr View Post
I don't know why I am even going to try to explain this to you, because I know how this works. Deny all you want, you'll flat out reject what I am about to say.
I'm not the one who immediately evaded and tried to change the subject multiple times when directly challenged on their argument. Stop trying to play the martyr. You wouldn't any problem here had you simply responded on the same point you were challenged. Instead of evading, trying to change the subject or trying to blame the person challenging you.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mjr View Post
Part of the right to keep and bear arms is about protection. You and I both know that Antifa here in the U.S. has become violent. And yes, they have. So if a person on the frontier could carry a gun for protection, why can't someone in modern-day society? The principle is the same. But instead of being attacked by a bear or whatever, they're reducing the chance of being attacked by an Antifa thug.
how this works. Deny all you want, you'll flat out reject what I am about to say.
Okay, so you went from linking Antifa to the dangers of the American frontier, to denying you did that, to linking Antifa to the American frontier again? And as I said in the other thread, that is not the argument we were having. Stop using the far right playbook to try and change the subject. I made no argument on gun control and directly told you as such.

So far in answering this *one* criticism against your argument you have:
1) Made a semantic argument to change the topic instead of responding.
2) Accused *me* of making a semantic argument when I pointed that out.
3) Tried to change the topic away from the criticism instead of answering it.
4) Claimed you didn't start the argument in the first place despite being the one that directly pointed me to your own post with that argument.
5) Accused me of doing the thing I was criticizing you for like I've been around here oppressing you on a daily basis.
6) Played the indignant victim.
7) Conceded it was actually your argument but tried to change the topic of it again.

You did all of that just to avoid answering a single criticism of your words. And that's just on *this* one point. You likewise seized one off hand remark of this thread and tried to change the subject of it entirely. While continuing to make attempts at topic changes with comments like "You can say they aren't" and "You'll flat out reject what I'm about to say".

I am not having those arguments with you and never was. Those are things you are inserting to try and shift the conversation away from what you're being criticized for and make it sound like you're the one being attacked. Instead of responding to the actual point you invent an argument that wasn't happening between us than you preemptively set it up like you're the victim.

You are being disingenuous. You are not arguing in good faith. You are changing the subject when something looks unfavourable to you. You are trying to change the topic of threads entirely. You pulling a straight Bush era Karl Rove playbook by accusing others of the thing you yourself are guilty off. You're pulling straight Trump era far right playbook moves by trying to move the discussion off of an unfavourable point to one you can ardently defend. As if the last point had been settled.

And all the while you are acting the victim. Stop it.

I have been out in the wilds watching this kind of shit go on for over a year now on other forums and social media. These same standard tactics and repeated cycles of bullshit. I expect better from Fratching compared to shitholes like /pol/ or Reddit.

So stop it. I don't want to see that kind of crap here in the era of Trump. Fratching is the one quiet, relatively sane place I still know of on the Internet.

As I said in the other thread, if you can't defend a point you make without having to resort to these kind of deflection tactics then don't make the point in the first place.
Reply With Quote

  #19  
Old 11-09-2017, 01:30 AM
Talon's Avatar
Talon Talon is offline
Atheist
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 356
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gravekeeper View Post
I know I've been away for a while but do you have any method of debating that is not a whataboutism or an attempt to change the subject?
Clearly mjr does not. I don't know why anyone around these parts expects anything different at this point.
__________________
Customer: I need an Apache.
Gravekeeper: The Tribe or the Gunship?
Reply With Quote

  #20  
Old 11-09-2017, 08:29 AM
Canarr Canarr is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 882
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenday View Post
To quote the video, "If you aren't sure who the bad guy is, ask your self if one of the groups has the word 'Nazi' in their name. They do? They're the bad guy."
False dichotomy. Yes, Nazis are bad guys. But that doesn't necessarily make anyone fighting them the good guys by definition. My enemy's enemies may still be a bunch of assholes.

And Antifa isn't showing up to those protests just in cloth masks, either. They, too, are wearing body armor or helmets, using weighted gloves and batons. They, too, are going there to fight - preferably Nazis, but they're not always that discriminating about who they consider a Nazi.
__________________
"You are who you are on your worst day, Durkon. Anything less is a comforting lie you tell yourself to numb the pain." - Evil
"You're trying to be Lawful Good. People forget how crucial it is to keep trying, even if they screw it up now and then." - Good
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT. The time now is 04:08 AM.


vBulletin skins developed by: eXtremepixels
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.