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  #21  
Old 11-22-2016, 08:35 PM
s_stabeler s_stabeler is offline
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There's also the fact that neither Trump or Obama had significant national-level politics experience- Obama hadn't been completed a single term as Senator IIRC, while Trump has never held a political post. It's harder to accept a Washington longtimer like Clinton as a reformer.
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  #22  
Old 11-23-2016, 05:32 AM
Valinor Valinor is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyena Dandy View Post
But a little experimentation on my part has shown that that's pretty close to what you see.
Well, as has been pointed out, if a conservative is partisan enough to consume news in a "micro-targeted" fashion (as John Oliver put it), then it likely doesn't matter if liberals were "crying wolf" on the issues of racism and sexism, because these conservatives wouldn't listen, anyway.

Also, just about every public forum we have was so saturated with talk of the elections that it really is unlikely that anybody could have been unaware of what Trump was saying and doing, or that conservatives (as well as liberals) were tearing into him for it.

But, if a conservative somehow did manage to block out everything outside of a single, self-validating news stream, like the Wall Street Journal's red Facebook feed, then I would say again that it doesn't really matter what liberals were crying wolf about, because these conservatives wouldn't hear anything they were saying to begin with.

Quote:
I felt pretty sure Hillary would beat any Republican except Trump.
That's interesting, because I'd actually heard the exact opposite from a number of people - that Hillary Clinton would lose to any Republican except Donald Trump.

I remember Trevor Noah commenting that the two nominees were both very lucky, because after (1) it was revealed that just about everything that Hillary Clinton had said in her own defense during the e-mail scandal turned out to be untrue, and (2) Donald Trump spent his speeches talking about what a great job Saddam Hussein did of killing terrorists instead of capitalizing on the e-mail scandal to put the Clinton campaign down for good, it was clear that Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump were "each running against the only candidate they could possibly beat."

The reasoning, basically, was that Hillary Clinton was so scandal-plagued, and Donald Trump was such a buffoon, that neither of them would have had any chance of defeating any of the other 21 candidates who had been running in the primaries. Clinton and Trump's only chance of becoming President was to face off against the one opponent who would look just as bad.

Now, please understand, I'm not saying that your reasoning is wrong, Hyena Dandy. I think you make a very good argument. I'm not saying that Trevor Noah was wrong, either. I just think that there were probably many, many factors influencing how, and whether, any given person would vote in this election, and ultimately, who would win.
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  #23  
Old 11-24-2016, 01:11 PM
Canarr Canarr is online now
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I'll leave this link here. A lot of good points:

In talking with researchers and looking at the studies on this, I found that it is possible to reduce people’s racial anxiety and prejudices. And the canvassing idea was regarded as very promising. But, researchers cautioned, the process of reducing people’s racism will take time and, crucially, empathy.

This is the direct opposite of the kind of culture the internet has fostered — typically focused on calling out racists and shaming them in public. This doesn’t work. And as much as it might seem like a lost cause to understand the perspectives of people who may qualify as racist, understanding where they come from is a needed step to being able to speak to them in a way that will help reduce the racial biases they hold.

[SNIP]

“Telling people they’re racist, sexist, and xenophobic is going to get you exactly nowhere,” said Alana Conner, executive director of Stanford University’s Social Psychological Answers to Real-World Questions Center. “It’s such a threatening message. One of the things we know from social psychology is when people feel threatened, they can’t change, they can’t listen.”

Arlie Hochschild, a sociologist and author of Strangers in Their Own Land: Anger and Mourning on the American Right, provided an apt analogy for white rural Americans’ feeling of neglect: As they see it, they are all in this line toward a hill with prosperity at the top. But over the past few years, globalization and income stagnation have caused the line to stop moving. And from their perspective, people — black and brown Americans, women — are now cutting in the line, because they’re getting new (and more equal) opportunities through new anti-discrimination laws and policies like affirmative action.


I get that it's appealing to treat Trump's voters with scorn, but it's not going to be helpful in the long run.
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  #24  
Old 11-25-2016, 02:09 PM
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HYHYBT HYHYBT is offline
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Here's the trouble: that perspective is a lie, and empathizing with it doesn't change it nor, by itself, show any way of getting people who currently believe it to recognize it for the lie that it is.
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  #25  
Old 11-27-2016, 07:36 PM
Canarr Canarr is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HYHYBT View Post
Here's the trouble: that perspective is a lie, and empathizing with it doesn't change it nor, by itself, show any way of getting people who currently believe it to recognize it for the lie that it is.
No, of course it doesn't. You still need to provide actual arguments to try and make people change their mind. However, empathizing with them may actually give you the opportunity to try and do so, which simply dismissing them as racist, sexist, uneducated Deplorables will not.

From the article:


In the beginning of their conversation, Virginia asks Gustavo how likely he'd be to support transgender rights legislation. Gustavo says he wouldn't support it because he's worried about predatory men using the law as an opportunity to enter women's bathrooms.

Virginia asks why he feels that way.

"I'm from South America, and in South America we don't like fags," he tells her.

This next moment is crucial: Virginia doesn't jump on Gustavo for the slur, and instead says, "I'm gay," in a friendly manner. Gustavo doesn't recoil. Actually, he becomes more interested.

Gustavo and Virginia go on to discuss how much they love their partners, and how that love helps them overcome adversity. Gustavo tells Virginia that his wife is a disabled person. "God gave me the ability to love a disabled person," he says, and that taking care of one another is why love matters.

"That resonate a lots with me," Virginia responds. "For me, these laws, and including transgender people are about that. They're about how we treat one another."

Now that Gustavo is in a place where he's more open, Virginia asks him to imagine what the worst thing could happen if he used a bathroom with a transgender person. He admits he wouldn't be scared. Then comes the breakthrough.

"Listen, probably I was mistaken," he says of his original position on trans rights.

Virginia asks him again if he'd vote in favor of banning transgender discrimination. "In favor," he says.


Of course, not everybody will be accessible to reason. But do you really wanna write of 62 million Americans as lost cases?
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