Go Back   Fratching! > General > Religion

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes

  #11  
Old 05-09-2015, 03:53 PM
Aragarthiel Aragarthiel is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 300
Default

When it comes to religion, nobody should be forced to doubt their own beliefs. It doesn't matter that he was trying to challenge the students, because this particular topic calls fora different approach. Her beliefs were obviously deeply ingrained in her, so much so that any doubts would likely have sent her whole world toppling over. You don't just challenge someone's religion and expect it to end well.
Reply With Quote

  #12  
Old 05-09-2015, 04:00 PM
Kheldarson Kheldarson is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 1,513
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aragarthiel View Post
When it comes to religion, nobody should be forced to doubt their own beliefs. It doesn't matter that he was trying to challenge the students, because this particular topic calls fora different approach. Her beliefs were obviously deeply ingrained in her, so much so that any doubts would likely have sent her whole world toppling over. You don't just challenge someone's religion and expect it to end well.
Wait, what?

No. Nononono. The path to growth is challenge. Heck, my favorite world history teacher went to my church. You know what his first religious question to us was? As ninth graders?

"So do you think religion was created as a means of control?"

We were discussing prehistoric times, as a note.

He played Devil's advocate. He threw out challenges to core beliefs of all religion and even to religion as a whole. It was always done respectfully and always done with the goal to make us think, which it did. Were some students troubled after some of his questions? Sure. But they had to sit and explain why they believed what they did.

And a number of us came out of his class wondering more about our faith and studying to reaffirm it. Some went on to explore other options. That's growth. That's saying, "I'm an adult now. I need to figure out what I believe, not what my church/parents/authorities say I should." You don't get that moment without challenge.
__________________
I has a blog!
Reply With Quote

  #13  
Old 05-09-2015, 10:50 PM
Panacea's Avatar
Panacea Panacea is offline
The Cure for All Ills
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 1,474
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aragarthiel View Post
When it comes to religion, nobody should be forced to doubt their own beliefs. It doesn't matter that he was trying to challenge the students, because this particular topic calls fora different approach. Her beliefs were obviously deeply ingrained in her, so much so that any doubts would likely have sent her whole world toppling over. You don't just challenge someone's religion and expect it to end well.
First of all, I agree with every word GK said in answer to this.

But I'll go a step further and say that making the student DOUBT their beliefs wasn't even the goal. It was to QUESTION their beliefs and look at the world through a different lens.

You don't have to sacrifice what you believe in order to do that. Often, if you take up that challenge to look at the world differently, you can come out of the experience with a stronger faith, not a weaker one. You come out stronger because you understand why you believe what you do, and you believe it because it resonates with you, because it works for you, because it forms the core of the person you want to be, not because you've been indoctrinated in it by your surroundings (parents, church, friends) and believe in it to fit in.

When that happens what you learn is acceptance and tolerance of the different viewpoints of others, and that is a very Christian point of view.
__________________
Good news! Your insurance company says they'll cover you. Unfortunately, they also say it will be with dirt.
Reply With Quote

  #14  
Old 05-10-2015, 03:54 AM
HYHYBT's Avatar
HYHYBT HYHYBT is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 5,191
Default

You don't even have to question your beliefs in order to answer questions from a different position.
__________________
"My in-laws are country people and at night you can hear their distinctive howl."
Reply With Quote

  #15  
Old 05-10-2015, 12:43 PM
s_stabeler s_stabeler is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 2,135
Default

to say nothing of the fact that allowing extremist views to go unchallenged is not a good idea.
Reply With Quote

  #16  
Old 05-13-2015, 09:28 AM
Hyena Dandy's Avatar
Hyena Dandy Hyena Dandy is offline
Omnomnom
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 2,415
Default

I think that there's definitely problems with the assumptions in the questions, and I personally would have likely dropped the class (The same as I did in an astronomy class where the teacher kept diverting from Astronomy to Talking About Why Religious People Are Dumb (because they hate astronomy.))

Now, it is possible that what the teacher is doing is asking students to look at things from another perspective. But that doesn't seem like what this is to me. The questions seem more like they are stating a thesis, and asking the students to expand on it. College is a place to expand student's knowledge. Challenging preconceptions is important. That is not the way to do it, and is from a historical perspective irresponsible. Questions like

"How does the renaissance allow for humanism to become the faith of the day" is asking me to write an essay explaining that thesis. And I imagine most renaissance historians would argue that that thesis is pretty questionable in and of itself. Similarly, "Write about Martin Luther as a Humanist, don't talk about his theology" is different from "What Humanist ideals are found in Martin Luther's writing? Not theological ideals" The former question can only be answered if I think that his theology and humanism can be seen separately.

Now, I'm all for challenging ideas, but there has to be an option to be challenged and disagree. I'd happily read an article about how Luther's humanism and theology are separate things that can be understood separately. And I would be willing to be convinced. However, I would draw the line at being told I need to come to a specific answer and write about that. I would also be happy to answer "Why is it that (X) person thinks (Y)?" It's important to learn to get into other people's heads.

For example, if I were to read a question that says "Why is it that someone would believe that Hypatia was killed for her scientific beliefs against Religion?" Or "What evidence is there that Hypatia's scientific studies were why she was killed?" I would be very happy to write that. In fact, that's a type of essay I think more people SHOULD be asked to write. However, if I were given a question that says "In what way did Hypatia's scientific studies lead to her death?" I would be quite put out, and potentially drop the course, if I wasn't allowed to present an argument that that's not the case.

Edit: This isn't to say that what he's done should be illegal. But rather that I think he's an ass who's not doing a very good job as a teacher.
__________________
"Nam castum esse decet pium poetam
ipsum, versiculos nihil necessest"
Reply With Quote

  #17  
Old 05-13-2015, 11:03 AM
Gravekeeper Gravekeeper is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 4,817
Default

A) It's Breitbart.

B) I'm pretty sure this is the idea behind an awful movie with Kevin Sorbo.

C) If someone asks you a question about the history of your religion and you immediately dovetail into using the term "Marxist" you should not be in a college humanities course.

D) It's Breitbart.

I can't find any real news source bothering with this story. Everything is right wing / fundie nutjob sites screeching about Christian persecution. Also, Fox ( Naturally ).


Quote:
Originally Posted by Aragarthiel
Her beliefs were obviously deeply ingrained in her, so much so that any doubts would likely have sent her whole world toppling over.
If an essay question can destroy your entire world you have much much bigger problems. She's 16, not a 4 year old learning Santa isn't real.
Reply With Quote

  #18  
Old 05-13-2015, 12:10 PM
Hyena Dandy's Avatar
Hyena Dandy Hyena Dandy is offline
Omnomnom
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 2,415
Default

Quote:

I can't find any real news source bothering with this story
Well, yeah. Because "College professor kind of a dick" is not really news worth reporting. Most people have had bad professors in their time without, qutie literally, making a legal case out of it. It takes quite a bit of an ego to say that you're legally entitled to pass a class because it had a bad professor. I had a bad astronomy teacher. I didn't sue the school over it. >_>

Edit:

Quote:
"So do you think religion was created as a means of control?"
That's exactly what I'm talking about, in the difference between a good question and a bad one. "Do you think religion was created as a means of control?" and trying to prove your answer wrong, is very different from "Tell me how religion was created as a means of control." Or "What evidence is there that religion was created as a means of control?"

Edited Edit: Also, the story behind the Kevin Sorbo movie is someone getting pissed because they don't let a teacher finish their sentence. >_> What caused the whole uproar is actually a pretty common philosophy exercise. You're asked to write 'God is Dead' on a piece of paper, sign it, and hand it in... With the intention of leading into a discussion about symbols, languages, etc. As a Christian would not believe that God does not exist, or that writing "God does not exist" would cause Him to cease to exist, and signing one's name does not mean that you believe it. I can write "My favorite team is the Pittsburgh Steelers" and sign it, and it wouldn't make it true. It's a good exercise to get people thinking. But idiots somehow flipped it upside down, and claimed that it was the opposite of its real intention, and, in fact, if that was the real intention, then the exercise itself would be rendered moot, since a teacher who doesn't want religious students in his class could not effectively talk about meanings nad symbols if they assume no-one feels uncomfortable doing that.
__________________
"Nam castum esse decet pium poetam
ipsum, versiculos nihil necessest"

Last edited by Hyena Dandy; 05-13-2015 at 12:19 PM.
Reply With Quote

  #19  
Old 05-13-2015, 10:32 PM
Panacea's Avatar
Panacea Panacea is offline
The Cure for All Ills
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 1,474
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyena Dandy View Post
"How does the renaissance allow for humanism to become the faith of the day" is asking me to write an essay explaining that thesis. And I imagine most renaissance historians would argue that that thesis is pretty questionable in and of itself. Similarly, "Write about Martin Luther as a Humanist, don't talk about his theology" is different from "What Humanist ideals are found in Martin Luther's writing? Not theological ideals" The former question can only be answered if I think that his theology and humanism can be seen separately.
<snip>

Edit: This isn't to say that what he's done should be illegal. But rather that I think he's an ass who's not doing a very good job as a teacher.
Well, I said in my first post on this topic that I thought the assignment was advanced for undergraduate level work. I also think it's much for an introductory to Humanities course, which this is.

That is not something to be litigated, because professors have academic freedom. It's an issue to be dealt with in the course evaluation. If the work is too much for you, you drop. You don't insist on banging your head into a wall and failing the course, and then complain that you failed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gravekeeper View Post
C) If someone asks you a question about the history of your religion and you immediately dovetail into using the term "Marxist" you should not be in a college humanities course.
Well, that's par for the course for Christian fundies. When you can't make a good argument scream "Communist!" as if it's the bogeyman.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Gravekeeper View Post
I can't find any real news source bothering with this story. Everything is right wing / fundie nutjob sites screeching about Christian persecution. Also, Fox ( Naturally ).
I can't either. It's because this story is not news. I did find a blog that pretty much agreed with what I've had to say, and you've said to some extent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gravekeeper View Post
If an essay question can destroy your entire world you have much much bigger problems. She's 16, not a 4 year old learning Santa isn't real.
So this.
__________________
Good news! Your insurance company says they'll cover you. Unfortunately, they also say it will be with dirt.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT. The time now is 04:44 PM.


vBulletin skins developed by: eXtremepixels
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.