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  #11  
Old 05-22-2015, 10:17 PM
s_stabeler s_stabeler is offline
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yes and no. IF purgatory exists- and I don't personally believe it does- then I figure it's for the people who've been bad, but not really bad enough to justify keeping them out of heaven. People who've been neither good nor bad still get into heaven. ( basically, the way I believe it, if you are actively evil, you can't get into heaven. If you were neither good nor evil (overall, anyway) you can get into heaven. If you are generally a good, moral person, you get into heaven. If you are completely pure, that's what Saints are.)


but as for go forth and sin no more- yes and no. You don't have to be perfect afterwards, but it's the right idea. Basically, what is not acceptable is asking for forgiveness, then going right back on with the behavior you were asking for forgiveness for.
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  #12  
Old 05-22-2015, 10:36 PM
Kheldarson Kheldarson is offline
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Originally Posted by s_stabeler View Post
yes and no. IF purgatory exists- and I don't personally believe it does- then I figure it's for the people who've been bad, but not really bad enough to justify keeping them out of heaven. People who've been neither good nor bad still get into heaven. ( basically, the way I believe it, if you are actively evil, you can't get into heaven. If you were neither good nor evil (overall, anyway) you can get into heaven. If you are generally a good, moral person, you get into heaven. If you are completely pure, that's what Saints are.)
Actually, Purgatory, as taught by the Church, is where most folks start. I'll have to find the verse later, but one of the supporting verses for Purgatory is where Jesus declares that he'll purify us as in a refiner's fire. The idea is that if you die with sin still upon you, you'll be cleansed in Purgatory. Saints, by definition, skip Purgatory, having served their time here.
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  #13  
Old 05-23-2015, 02:34 AM
Tama Tama is offline
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If you believe Dante's Inferno, then purgatory is where the sins are purged out of you as you ascend to heaven.

The first ring of hell is just a bunch of nice people who were never baptized or were pagans. They're not tormented but they're absent from God. Sadness without sorrow.
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  #14  
Old 05-23-2015, 03:27 AM
Titi Titi is offline
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I remember asking my mother about this when I was a teen. Both of my parents were Ministers. She told me that just asking for forgiveness was not enough to get you into heaven. You have to be SINCERE about it. When you are sincere you show true remorse for what you did and she said ( it was another situation similar to what you said that prompted me to ask the question) they are only praying because they got caught.
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  #15  
Old 05-23-2015, 12:42 PM
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Hyena Dandy Hyena Dandy is offline
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My understanding of those beliefs is that, effectively, if you are Christian, you have Faith in God, you are driven by God to do God's work. If you do something abjectly evil, intentionally - Then clearly, you can't have been driven by God to do evil. So rather than a one-time guarantee it is more that... You can't have evil in your heart. So if a Christian of those sects does something evil, say hurts someone, then one a few things must be the explanation.

1) They did so unwittingly. If, for example, I open a door on your face, I have harmed you. I didn't know you were there, though.

2) They did so accidentally. Like unwittingly, they might have KNOWN they shouldn't do it, but mistakenly did. Clicked the wrong button on a computer, dropped something, etc. Not that they had no idea what could happen if they did it, but rather, they just didn't mean to do it.

3) They did so falsely. If, for example, a less pacifist version of me believed someone was trying to break into their house, and so, to defend themselves, struck them. Now, suppose that that person was not, in fact, trying to break in and take something, but was simply confused, and believed they had lost the key to their own house. I may have hurt them, but I did so because I was misinformed.

4) They weren't 'Saved' in the first place. This seems a little like a No True Scotsman thing, but from a theological perspective, it's distinct. Since they believe, theologically, no Christian would do evil because no Christian could WANT to do evil, someone who does, cannot have been Christian, as that would have kept them on the right path. Again, this isn't quite a No True Scotsman, as it is a definitional issue from a theological perspective. Do bad stuff, you weren't saved. In the same way that I could say "Someone who believes in a strong central government and heavily regulating corporations is not an anarcho-capitalist." It's a case where "Christian" theologically is different from Christian in non-theological conversation.

The one-time deal works on the grounds that either you are saved, and thus, not evil, and thus, must have done evil for other reasons. Or you are not, and merely calling yourself Christian, either because you've been tricked into thinking y ou are, or to harm others.

Now, I have plenty of points of disagreement on this. Don't mistake my attempting to summarize my best understanding of the "If you're a Christian you're automatically saved" thing as an attempt at defending the position, I'm just explaining it, and if you want to argue why those points are wrong, well, you're arguing with the wrong person. I probably agree with you.

Edit: I also have views on heaven and salvation, that I won't much get into here.
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  #16  
Old 05-23-2015, 02:29 PM
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jedimaster91 jedimaster91 is offline
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Many have touched on the idea that there has to be some sort of penance to be truly forgiven of one's sins. Also that one must strive to do better next time. The way I've taught it to my Sunday School classes is as follows:
--Acknowledge wrong doing and accept responsibility
--Pray for forgiveness
--Ask the one(s) wronged for forgiveness
--Make restitution
--Don't do it again

So a really simplified example is kids playing too rough in the house and breaking something. Kid has to admit they broke it and then do chores around the house in order to earn money to replace it. And then remember to not play so rough in the house anymore.

As for the things you do wrong that you don't realize, most Christian religions have some kind of sacrament/communion. I can only speak for my own religion, but the sacrament acts as a renewal of baptism and washes clean all those little sins you didn't know you committed. Some "bigger" sins do require the help of the clergy to overcome. And of course, one is expected to comply with any and all legal punishments if a crime is committed.
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  #17  
Old 05-24-2015, 05:44 AM
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Panacea Panacea is offline
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Originally Posted by mjr View Post
He believes that if you're a Christian, and you ask for forgiveness, it's granted, regardless of what you do.
It's important to understand there are VAST differences between what various sects of Christianity believe.

Catholics believe it takes a combination of good works and grace to go to Heaven. Grace is obtained by declaring Jesus Christ your savior and following his faith. Once you've heard the Good News you must follow Jesus to obtain Grace.

Protestants believe you only need grace. Some denominations believe that grace is bestowed by God only and that no one knows who gets it, even if they are devout believers.

No one knows who goes to heaven, hell, or purgatory. I believe in Hell. I don't know if anyone is in there, other than Satan.

Absolution requires repentance and an effort to make things right through penance.
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  #18  
Old 05-26-2015, 05:06 PM
wolfie wolfie is offline
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No one knows who goes to heaven, hell, or purgatory. I believe in Hell. I don't know if anyone is in there, other than Satan.
If Hitler, Stalin, and Pol Pot (spelling) aren't there, then the existence of Hell is pointless.
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  #19  
Old 05-27-2015, 05:28 PM
Crazedclerkthe2nd Crazedclerkthe2nd is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Titi View Post
I remember asking my mother about this when I was a teen. Both of my parents were Ministers. She told me that just asking for forgiveness was not enough to get you into heaven. You have to be SINCERE about it. When you are sincere you show true remorse for what you did and she said ( it was another situation similar to what you said that prompted me to ask the question) they are only praying because they got caught.
I generally believe the same. You can get forgiveness from God without salvation from God. That is to say, you can be forgiven for a sin but that's no guarantee of going to heaven.

Repenting from that sin and choosing to follow God more obediently are big factors in reaching the point of salvation that would get you to heaven.

Getting forgiveness from God for sin is the easy part. It's what you do AFTER that that determines if you'll make it to heaven.
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  #20  
Old 05-27-2015, 06:12 PM
Tama Tama is offline
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How does the Bible put it?

"Faith without works is dead"?
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