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  #21  
Old 09-04-2018, 05:25 PM
mjr mjr is offline
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Originally Posted by Daskinor View Post
IDs wont solve the problem, real vs fake.
Well, there are already laws on the books about fake IDs.


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So are you for or against, I can't tell. I stand by gerrymandering as a voter suppression technique.
Are you for it if it "helps" your side? Honestly, I don't care for gerrymandering, and getting districts drawn up fairly can be quite a complicated task.


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The point was the state made a mistake, and issued them a voter card. Even though they checked the box saying they are a non citizen.
I get that. But how many of them voted when they shouldn't have? If the bank makes a mistake and puts $100 extra in my account, I technically don't have the right to spend that money.


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Wow, you are just not right, at all. The situation is complicated.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_..._United_States
Complicated, sure. But that doesn't mean that the Constitution is wrong.

In fact, the constitution only says that citizens have the right to vote. https://www.usconstitution.net/const.pdf

Further: http://joshblackman.com/blog/2013/05...izens-to-vote/

And https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/611

The important word: "Citizen".

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How does a drivers license prove it? Don't flip out the answer is it does not.
It proves you are who you say you are. Because it has a photo on it.

Last edited by mjr; 09-04-2018 at 05:47 PM.
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  #22  
Old 09-04-2018, 06:54 PM
Daskinor Daskinor is offline
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Well, there are already laws on the books about fake IDs.
So what is it organised groups of people who are voting illegally that can only be stopped by the DMV. Or the system is so sacred that people who fall into the margins, or have paperwork problems outside of their control. Cannot be allowed to vote, even if they are citizens. Because the risk of a non-citizen voting is to great.

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Are you for it if it "helps" your side? Honestly, I don't care for gerrymandering, and getting districts drawn up fairly can be quite a complicated task.
I think a 'first past the post' system is stupid for representatives. And I could go into a long i discussion about doing a different style of election for them.

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I get that. But how many of them voted when they shouldn't have? If the bank makes a mistake and puts $100 extra in my account, I technically don't have the right to spend that money.
Apples to oranges, It be more like if I was given a drivers license after I failed my test. The state in the end still said it was OK for me to drive.

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Complicated, sure. But that doesn't mean that the Constitution is wrong.

In fact, the constitution only says that citizens have the right to vote. https://www.usconstitution.net/const.pdf

Further: http://joshblackman.com/blog/2013/05...izens-to-vote/

And https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/611

The important word: "Citizen".
FROM ONE OF THE ARTICLES YOU REFERENCED O_O

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Of course, nothing in the text of the Constitution would *stop* a state from giving noncitizens the right to vote. But what are the cultural or philosophical issues about extending the franchise in this manner?
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It proves you are who you say you are. Because it has a photo on it.
Doesn't prove you are a citizen, not required for daily life. And the paperwork to get one does not include any photo IDs at all.

But in the end I still have the same problem. Forcing someone to get something they are not required to have otherwise in order to perform a fundamental right of democracy. One that has been updated multiple times in the Constitution to prevent people in power from keeping that right from 'others'.

This widespread fraud you keep talking about died a long time ago. You will always see a number because no system is failproof. But when you count 32 people who should not of voted where over a million voted. Where that smaller number statistically has zero impact.

Eleven million people don't have ID in this country. I'm not about to say you can't vote because .005% of votes in this county may have been cast illegally. The people born before computers who don't have valid license, and are unable to get a copy of their birth certificate. People going off to college who don't drive where a student ID will be good enough until they are able to drink. People who are citizens but born to midwives or parents who were not citizens....

All this crap over something that is less then .005% and that is a high number.

And when fully investigated, nothing was found

https://www.documentcloud.org/docume...claration.html

Just a handful of isolated cases and very few were tired. Most dismissed as mistakes.
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  #23  
Old 09-05-2018, 06:18 PM
mjr mjr is offline
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Originally Posted by Daskinor View Post
Doesn't prove you are a citizen, not required for daily life. And the paperwork to get one does not include any photo IDs at all.
True. But guess what. When I originally got my driver's license, I had to show documentation. Documentation that I'm assuming can be verified. If I recall correctly, I had to show my birth certificate AND Social Security card.

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But in the end I still have the same problem. Forcing someone to get something they are not required to have otherwise in order to perform a fundamental right of democracy. One that has been updated multiple times in the Constitution to prevent people in power from keeping that right from 'others'.
So why do I need to get a fishing license? Or show ID to purchase a firearm? The "right to bear arms" is codified in the Constitution, yet we have people (some on this very forum) who say that right should be restricted, and some even say you must get a license, pass a test, etc. in order to get a firearm.

Do you agree with that?

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Eleven million people don't have ID in this country.
How many of them are legal citizens?

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The people born before computers who don't have valid license, and are unable to get a copy of their birth certificate. People going off to college who don't drive where a student ID will be good enough until they are able to drink. People who are citizens but born to midwives or parents who were not citizens....
There are fixes to all of those things.
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  #24  
Old 09-05-2018, 07:17 PM
Daskinor Daskinor is offline
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True. But guess what. When I originally got my driver's license, I had to show documentation. Documentation that I'm assuming can be verified. If I recall correctly, I had to show my birth certificate AND Social Security card.
Birth Certificates rarely are, especially if there is no computer record. They really just check for the watermark. When you throw in the number of different kinds from different states it can be a nightmare. Social Security numbers have some meta-data matching but its not very robust. Most they will perform is a e-verify check.

Quote:
So why do I need to get a fishing license? Or show ID to purchase a firearm? The "right to bear arms" is codified in the Constitution, yet we have people (some on this very forum) who say that right should be restricted, and some even say you must get a license, pass a test, etc. in order to get a firearm.

Do you agree with that?
Fishing License - Is not codified in the constitution. There is allot of case law on this one.

Firearm Purchase- Technically this is protected under the commerce clause. Case law also supports the state when it imposes restrictions on purchase in this manner. (United States v. Miller) You probably could make an argument for your point of view. But how the National Firearms Act was created, almost everything you are required to do is in order to pay a tax. But Sonzinsky v. United States will most likely mean you will not succeed. State laws vary dramatically, of course.

I do feel that the argument that you need and ID to do action A. So you should need an ID to vote is somewhat weak. The argument you need a license for anything is doubly so to me. You still essentially apply to vote, we call it voter registration. Just because one thing is more strict then does not have berrying on the argument. I apply for a fishing license, in MD I just need to prove in some way I am aware of some restrictions to what I can catch. My license fee goes towards programs to make sure I can enjoy my hobby, and not catch toxic Pfiesteria. My other professional license are allot harder to get.



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How many of them are legal citizens?
Sorry Eleven million citizens of voting age.

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There are fixes to all of those things.
Not really, those facts alone sunk allot of Voter ID laws. Because telling an senior citizen they need to 'hire a lawyer' so they can vote is a very bad answer. And I take great offence when you take away someones right to vote because a new restriction has been implemented. A restriction whose whole purpose is suppress votes, disguised as a way to fight an imaginary problem.
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  #25  
Old 09-05-2018, 09:32 PM
mjr mjr is offline
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Originally Posted by Daskinor View Post
You still essentially apply to vote, we call it voter registration.
Ok, but again, how do you ensure that those who register to vote are actually eligible to vote? Can I have my under 18 year old son register to vote? No. Why? Because he doesn't meet the criteria (yet) to vote.

Citizens are eligible to vote. And only citizens. How do we ensure that?

Quote:
Not really, those facts alone sunk allot of Voter ID laws. Because telling an senior citizen they need to 'hire a lawyer' so they can vote is a very bad answer. And I take great offence when you take away someones right to vote because a new restriction has been implemented. A restriction whose whole purpose is suppress votes, disguised as a way to fight an imaginary problem.
Texas has SEVEN things you can use as "ID". I don't care for some of them, because they don't have photo ID. They also have an affidavit you can sign that makes you affirm that you are who you say you are. What's wrong with that?
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  #26  
Old 09-06-2018, 03:55 PM
Daskinor Daskinor is offline
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Ok, but again, how do you ensure that those who register to vote are actually eligible to vote? Can I have my under 18 year old son register to vote? No. Why? Because he doesn't meet the criteria (yet) to vote.

Citizens are eligible to vote. And only citizens. How do we ensure that?
I don't care, because the problem is so minor. So minor that regions with millions of voters who check for non-citizens voting find less then 100 possible cases. And of those cases very few amount to criminal intent. Like 823 convictions of in person voter fraud in the last 40 years nationwide. Statistically a problem that has zero impact on any election. It is not worth the energy to deal with. Of course people who shouldn't vote do vote in an election. And even picture IDs wont fix that.

If you really are worried about election fraud, I would pay more attention to who counts the votes. Or the ones who try and keep people from voting, through laws, intimidation or even those robocalls trying to trick people into going to the wrong place or at the wrong time.

If you believe 0 is the only appropriate number and no resources should be spared to get to that number. That's fine. I believe that .005 is good enough, and anything more is a waste of tax dollars and public resources. Only to fight a boogieman.


Quote:
Texas has SEVEN things you can use as "ID". I don't care for some of them, because they don't have photo ID. They also have an affidavit you can sign that makes you affirm that you are who you say you are. What's wrong with that?
Yes because the new Texas Voter ID laws are nothing but a copout at this point. They kept getting their ass handed to them in court. Texas is also one of the worst states for losing Birth Certificate data. The flooding this year alone destroyed over 50,000 vital records.

Bring your ID!

Unless you don't have ID then bring a voter registration card, a copy or original of a current utility bill, bank statement, government check, paycheck or other document that shows the voter’s name and address. Then sign a piece of paper saying you cant get an ID.....

So in the end result is, nothing changes. You may just need to wait in line longer.

Same crap other states require. The only difference is most states will wave the show form of identification requirement after you vote for the first time.
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