Go Back   Fratching! > General > Church and State

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes

  #71  
Old 12-03-2012, 02:39 PM
wolfie wolfie is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 937
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AmbrosiaWriter View Post
Despite what anyone says, there is a date that is globally known as being "Christmas" just like there is a date that is nationally known in the USA as being "Independence Day." Therefore, if someone wishes you "Merry Christmas" they are wishing that you have a good, merry December 25th, no matter what religion you are or what you celebrate.
And no matter whether your December 25th is according to the Julian or Gregorian calendar.
Reply With Quote

  #72  
Old 12-04-2012, 12:41 AM
BlaqueKatt BlaqueKatt is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 2,539
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andara Bledin View Post
Plus, the other people in that scenario are choosing to be offended by making assumptions about the person they're offended at because they're assuming that that person made assumptions about them. It's their own prejudice that's got them offended, not the prejudice that they assume a complete stranger has towards them.
that is almost clear, here let's use something other than "merry christmas/happy holidays" and you may understand why what you're suggesting is preposterous.

I make a joke about Rape/child molestation, because hey it's a joke, it's funny!

Oh no, Sara is a survivor of rape/child molestation, and she CHOSE to be be offended.

But I only said it because I thought it was funny, so she's being prejudiced against me, using that ^ logic, I didn't know she had been through that, not my fault, I was just trying to make her laugh.

So I'm not at all to blame.

See how that doesn't work so well?

there was a previous thread, about how meaning and intent are separate, had to do with derogatory terms.

interesting how that was decided that the person making the statement was at fault, for causing offense(I believe the n-word, and 'fag' were given as examples at some point), because what was intended, wasn't what was communicated.

Would you blame someone for being upset at hearing the word Faggot(even if said in jest, or said by a Canadian asking for a smoke)?(OMG that's offensive!)
But you'll blame someone for being upset at merry christmas?(grow up/get over yourself)

interesting.

Last edited by BlaqueKatt; 12-04-2012 at 01:00 AM.
Reply With Quote

  #73  
Old 12-04-2012, 12:46 AM
Nekojin Nekojin is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,228
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlaqueKatt View Post
that is almost clear, here let's use something other than "merry christmas/happy holidays" and you may understand why what you're suggesting is preposterous.

I make a joke about Rape/child molestation, because hey it's a joke, it's funny!

Oh no, Sara is a survivor of rape/child molestation, and she CHOSE to be be offended.

But I only said it because I thought it was funny, so she's being prejudiced against me, using that logic, I didn't know she had been through that, not my fault, I was just trying to make her laugh.

So I'm not at all to blame.

See how that doesn't work so well?
Strawman arguments don't make your point stronger, they make it weaker.
Reply With Quote

  #74  
Old 12-04-2012, 01:22 AM
BlaqueKatt BlaqueKatt is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 2,539
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nekojin View Post
Strawman arguments don't make your point stronger, they make it weaker.
except, it's not a strawman. I'm trying to show that the "logic" of saying the offended party is to blame for being offended, is illogical. Using an example to show something doesn't hold water does not automatically make it a strawman.

If it was logical, then anytime someone was offended it would be the offended person's fault, and that is not the case. It's only in this instance that it is, apparently, and the only reason I can come up with for that is because religion is involved and religious beliefs "must be treated with kid gloves." Notice it's the people being offended by Merry christmas, being told to "get over themselves" and not a peep about the "keep the christ in christmas whargarlble" getting over themselves?

"tolerance is extended to policies, conditions, and modes of behavior which should not be tolerated because they are impeding, if not destroying, the chances of creating an existence without fear and misery."- Herbert Marcuse

I also find it interesting, all the "I wouldn't be offended if someone wished me happy Kwaanza", if it had ever happened, the term would be I wasn't, which means the situation has never occurred, and cannot be paralleled.

Chances are given statistics of religion, I will never hear "happy Hanukah" I'm 37, and in all my dealings, have yet to hear it ever, I hear "merry christmas" 30-40 times a day minimum(and usually say thank you, or have a good day). And have been told numerous times I was going to burn in hell for not saying it back(average on that, about 50 times a year), which means the intent was NOT to wish me goodwill, it was to judge me as non-religious.

Last edited by BlaqueKatt; 12-04-2012 at 01:24 AM.
Reply With Quote

  #75  
Old 12-04-2012, 01:54 AM
Nekojin Nekojin is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,228
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlaqueKatt View Post
except, it's not a strawman. I'm trying to show that the "logic" of saying the offended party is to blame for being offended, is illogical. Using an example to show something doesn't hold water does not automatically make it a strawman.
It's a strawman, because you're using a non-equivalent situation as though it were equivalent. You even know it's non-equivalent, because you're not an idiot, and you know that rape and child molestation are extremely sensitive subjects, and not something that people can just laugh and joke about if it's happened to them.

There's no way to make a rape joke or child molestation joke good-natured. It's simply not possible - you're making jokes about one of the worst things that people can experience. While you may not mean offense by it, that doesn't make it good-natured.

In contrast, most people wishing you "Happy Holidays" or "Merry Christmas" are offering it in good faith - it's a well-wishing of the season.

Quote:
If it was logical, then anytime someone was offended it would be the offended person's fault, and that is not the case. It's only in this instance that it is, apparently, and the only reason I can come up with for that is because religion is involved and religious beliefs "must be treated with kid gloves." Notice it's the people being offended by Merry christmas, being told to "get over themselves" and not a peep about the "keep the christ in christmas whargarlble" getting over themselves?
You're wrong. Flat-out, no question, wrong. Because some of the discussion that has been going on here is some religious people getting offended at being offered, "Happy Holidays," as well as some non-religious (or other-religioned) folks getting bent out of shape for being offered, "Merry Christmas."

Quote:
"tolerance is extended to policies, conditions, and modes of behavior which should not be tolerated because they are impeding, if not destroying, the chances of creating an existence without fear and misery."- Herbert Marcuse
Way to take a quote out of context and apply it to an inapplicable situation. I think Marcuse would be offended, if he were still alive.

Quote:
I also find it interesting, all the "I wouldn't be offended if someone wished me happy Kwaanza", if it had ever happened, the term would be I wasn't, which means the situation has never occurred, and cannot be paralleled.
I've been offered, "Happy Kwanzaa," and it's just fine with me. I've also offered people a, "Kickass Kwanzaa, Super Solstice, and Fabulous Festivus," all at once, and not had anyone (so far) get offended at that.
Reply With Quote

  #76  
Old 12-04-2012, 02:21 AM
Andara Bledin's Avatar
Andara Bledin Andara Bledin is offline
Accepting of Differences
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: sou Cali
Posts: 7,477
Default

It's a straw man because there is no situation in which a rape joke is appropriate, whereas most people one is going to encounter either celebrate Christmas or have no issue accepting well-wishes in the spirit they were given instead of going out of their way to find something to be butt-hurt over.

^-.-^
__________________
Faith is about what you do. It's about aspiring to be better and nobler and kinder than you are. It's about making sacrifices for the good of others. - Dresden
Reply With Quote

  #77  
Old 12-04-2012, 04:41 AM
TheHuckster TheHuckster is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,463
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlaqueKatt View Post
If it was logical, then anytime someone was offended it would be the offended person's fault, and that is not the case.
Yes, but I can pick many examples of people who are offended and it's "their fault" due to either oversensitivity or gross misunderstanding of the offender's words.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlaqueKatt View Post
It's only in this instance that it is, apparently, and the only reason I can come up with for that is because religion is involved and religious beliefs "must be treated with kid gloves." Notice it's the people being offended by Merry christmas, being told to "get over themselves" and not a peep about the "keep the christ in christmas whargarlble" getting over themselves?
My attitude about this whole thing is how you greet someone else should be a reflection of who you are. If you are someone who doesn't celebrate Christmas, or simply doesn't feel like saying "Merry Christmas" then I have absolutely no problem if your personal convictions compel you to say "Happy Holidays," "Seasons Greetings," or what have you, and people who are upset about that should get over themselves and understand that the month of December is a month of many holidays.

If you are someone who does celebrate Christmas and you want to wish someone else a "Merry Christmas," those who don't necessarily celebrate it shouldn't make a big deal out of it and move on.

My point is no one should make another feel bad about how they perceive December holidays, and how their greetings and expressions reflect those perceptions. If you want to say "Happy Holidays" that's fine. If you want to say "Merry Christmas", or any other "Happy [Insert_Winter_Holiday_Here]" then that's just as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlaqueKatt View Post
I also find it interesting, all the "I wouldn't be offended if someone wished me happy Kwaanza", if it had ever happened, the term would be I wasn't, which means the situation has never occurred, and cannot be paralleled.

Chances are given statistics of religion, I will never hear "happy Hanukah" I'm 37, and in all my dealings, have yet to hear it ever, I hear "merry christmas" 30-40 times a day minimum(and usually say thank you, or have a good day). And have been told numerous times I was going to burn in hell for not saying it back(average on that, about 50 times a year), which means the intent was NOT to wish me goodwill, it was to judge me as non-religious.
Great, so because some bigots use Merry Christmas as a tool to express their hateful views, you're going to paint everyone else who says the same with the same brush? Let me say this: When I say Merry Christmas to others, I never have those thoughts.

And, by the way, I used to live in a predominantly Jewish neighborhood, and it wasn't too uncommon to be talked to as if I were Jewish, and yes, I've been told on more than one occasion "Happy Hanukkah" and while I might find it somewhat unexpected, I hardly took offense to it.
Reply With Quote

  #78  
Old 12-05-2012, 02:15 AM
HYHYBT's Avatar
HYHYBT HYHYBT is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 5,191
Default

Why pretend that offense is *always* the fault of the one who offends, or alternately that it's *always* the fault of the one offended? It can be both, it can be neither, and it can lean heavily either way. A lot depends on how reasonable it is to take offense, on whether the speaker knows, and *what the options are.*

In the case of the contested greetings, ALL of the available options will offend somebody. Why ignore that and go off into irrelevancies about rape jokes, which you can simply tell (if you must at all) when you're among only people you already know like them?
__________________
"My in-laws are country people and at night you can hear their distinctive howl."
Reply With Quote

  #79  
Old 12-07-2012, 10:03 PM
AmbrosiaWriter's Avatar
AmbrosiaWriter AmbrosiaWriter is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 436
Default

I just found this and it made me think of this thread;

http://notalwaysright.com/the-grinch...ery-year/25589

^ Someone who takes the "political correctness" way too far. ^
Reply With Quote

  #80  
Old 12-18-2012, 09:36 PM
Andara Bledin's Avatar
Andara Bledin Andara Bledin is offline
Accepting of Differences
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: sou Cali
Posts: 7,477
Default

THIS SONG (link to Youtube) showed up in my holiday playlist on Pandora, today, and it made me think of this thread.

^-.-^
__________________
Faith is about what you do. It's about aspiring to be better and nobler and kinder than you are. It's about making sacrifices for the good of others. - Dresden
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT. The time now is 04:23 PM.


vBulletin skins developed by: eXtremepixels
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.