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  #21  
Old 12-21-2012, 10:15 PM
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AmbrosiaWriter AmbrosiaWriter is offline
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Originally Posted by s_stabeler View Post
it's in legal limbo, actually. Courts have said it's got to be legal in the case of mother's health, but the Oireachtas hasn't yet actualyl specifically amended the laws.
The problem isn't whether or not it's legal though. The doctors didn't say "It's illegal" to the mother when she asked for an abortion to save her life. They said This is a Catholic country. Them changing the law isn't going to change people's personal morals. The next mum is going to come around, needing an abortion to save her life, and they can still say This is a Catholic country/I'm Catholic so no abortion for you.

Unless they make it illegal to not give an abortion when the mother's life is on the line, I don't know if making abortion to save the mother's life legal will change anything.
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  #22  
Old 12-23-2012, 09:04 AM
Ginger Tea Ginger Tea is offline
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There's this place called Northern Ireland, I'm sure people living in the Republic of Ireland have heard of it, push comes to shove, get the train.
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  #23  
Old 12-23-2012, 01:11 PM
SongsOfDragons SongsOfDragons is offline
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AFAIK Northern Ireland isn't much help either in that regard. The reports keep saying women have to get a ferry/plane to Britain to have it done.
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  #24  
Old 12-25-2012, 04:09 PM
Blue Ginger Blue Ginger is offline
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Yep, Northern Ireland is like the rest of Ireland in this area. Too many docs refusing on moral/religious grounds.

It's a bit hard to just jump on the ferry, or a plane, if you are in this poor woman's situation.

As much as I loved my year in Dublin, Ireland is a bit backwards in some regards.

I was even warned that it can sometimes be difficult to get the pill. I took 18 months worth with me just in case.

Hell, morning peak hour used to happen 6 days a week. It was worse on a Sunday morning than during the week.
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  #25  
Old 12-25-2012, 09:53 PM
s_stabeler s_stabeler is offline
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Originally Posted by AmbrosiaWriter View Post
The problem isn't whether or not it's legal though. The doctors didn't say "It's illegal" to the mother when she asked for an abortion to save her life. They said This is a Catholic country. Them changing the law isn't going to change people's personal morals. The next mum is going to come around, needing an abortion to save her life, and they can still say This is a Catholic country/I'm Catholic so no abortion for you.

Unless they make it illegal to not give an abortion when the mother's life is on the line, I don't know if making abortion to save the mother's life legal will change anything.
I was answering Rapscallion. I happen to agree with you, though.
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  #26  
Old 01-05-2013, 10:15 AM
static static is offline
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Originally Posted by Ginger Tea View Post
There's this place called Northern Ireland, I'm sure people living in the Republic of Ireland have heard of it, push comes to shove, get the train.
The first ever abortion clinic in the North was only opened in October, amid massive protests. It's also the only part of the UK where the 1967 Abortion Act doesn't apply, so even now they're very limited in what they can do.

Generally, Irish women who want abortions travel to the UK or Europe, but that option isn't available to everyone. Between travel and the fact that Irish women aren't covered under other countries public health systems, it can be prohibitively expensive. It's also not an option for women who are too sick to make the journey. And the government has even been known to try to stop women from travelling for abortions.

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Originally Posted by AmbrosiaWriter View Post
Unless they make it illegal to not give an abortion when the mother's life is on the line, I don't know if making abortion to save the mother's life legal will change anything.
The law currently says that doctors have to make every effort to save both the mother and the foetus equally, but in practice they tend to favour the foetus (as we have seen time and time again) for fear of criminal charges if they're deemed to have made the wrong call. There is a well documented case of a cancer patient being forced to leave the country for an abortion because her pregnancy was aggravating the cancer. It was almost definitely a threat to her life but not immediately so, and the doctors didn't even give her that basic information (she had to research her condition herself). She suffered huge complications due to the delay, but eventually went into remission thanks to the abortion. She later became a part of the 2010 lawsuit against the Irish government in which the European Court of Human Rights ruled that her rights had been violated.

Attitude is a major problem here, but in saying that, Catholicism's grip on the country is loosening. Slowly but surely. For every older doctor who would refuse an abortion on religious grounds, there's a new graduate who'd gladly give an abortion to a woman who needs one.

Last edited by static; 01-05-2013 at 10:43 AM.
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  #27  
Old 01-08-2013, 11:39 PM
static static is offline
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So, the Irish government has announced plans to legislate for abortion in the event that it threatens the mother's life and introduce regulations in accordance with the European Court of Human Rights' 2010 judgement, as well as repealing the legislation criminalises abortion. The hearings to draft up legislation began today. It's just sad that things had to go so far before politicians got their arses into gear. Of course some groups are complaining, saying this is the first step towards "a culture of death"... I'm not even going to comment on that.

I also noticed this on Facebook earlier. Catholic country, my hole.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...d-8022439.html
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  #28  
Old 01-09-2013, 03:21 AM
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*tilts head very slowly to the side.*

So creating legislature that makes it legal to save a mother's life, so that she may continue to either try for another baby or decide to adopt instead... is the first step toward "a culture of death."

*keels over. Birdies birdies birdies.*
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  #29  
Old 01-11-2013, 05:31 AM
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KabeRinnaul KabeRinnaul is offline
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Hokay, first things first. As I always remind everyone, I'm agnostic and in no way agree with the actions taken by the doctors here (I think they're as despicable as everyone else), but I do want to try and help explain the mindset that these people have.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AmbrosiaWriter View Post
So creating legislature that makes it legal to save a mother's life, so that she may continue to either try for another baby or decide to adopt instead... is the first step toward "a culture of death."
The "culture of death" and "culture of life" are big things for Catholics. The culture of death is essentially one that does not accept the sanctity of life, and is willing to prevent or end a life, whereas the culture of life holds that life is sacred and should be protected in all it's forms. Because they believe that life begins at conception, that means a fetus falls under that category as well, and is exactly as deserving of protection as anyone else. Essentially, for someone who follows this belief system, abortion is infanticide.

Anyway, exactly how the Culture of Life/Death is interpreted depends on how liberal or conservative a particular Catholic is. The conservative end tends to be main-line conservative (American conservative, anyway - actually, please remember that most of my experience is with American Catholics, and things may be a bit different elsewhere) - favors capital punishment, opposes gay marriage, opposes all forms of contraception and abortion. As you get more liberal, you get those who oppose the death penalty, think the Church could stand to modernize it's views on marriage and gender equality, and would be just as horrified as anyone else at the events here - I know a local priest who actually fits on this end.

(That many Catholics who oppose birth control also oppose welfare is because social conservatism and fiscal conservatism often go hand-in-hand. Father John is the liberal exception to this one, too - he holds that the Church has a duty to help care for the children it says must be brought into the world.)

But back to abortion. The reason it's considered wrong to abort is because, like I said, they consider it infanticide. The dilemma you face when the abortion is to save the life of the mother is that in their system of ethics, an evil action taken to bring about a good result remains an evil action; essentially, the end never justifies the means. Now, there is a bit of dogma in place that makes some allowances for questionable actions, known as the Doctrine of Double Effect. It's based on the writings of St. Thomas Aquinas, and essentially amounts to this: If the action is morally neutral, and the intended result is good, then the action may be considered good even if it results in some evil as well. His favored example was self-defense; murder is wrong, but if you should accidentally kill an assailant in the course of defending your own life, you have not sinned.

Some believe that the doctrine of double effect can be applied to cases like this, but the usual response is that the action to be taken - abortion - is still an evil act, and thus it doesn't qualify. And the logic present there exposes the point where the Church's ethics has problems. It basically says that if you perform an abortion, you've murdered a child to save the mother, and that's all on you. If you don't and the mother dies, then that was unfortunate, but it was a natural death and you can't fault anyone for that.
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  #30  
Old 01-11-2013, 02:21 PM
TheHuckster TheHuckster is offline
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Originally Posted by KabeRinnaul View Post
favors capital punishment, opposes gay marriage, opposes all forms of contraception and abortion.
It should be noted that the official stance by the Vatican opposes capital punishment.
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