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  #11  
Old 04-09-2013, 12:24 AM
PepperElf PepperElf is offline
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I'm not entirely against this. but i'll explain why.

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Congress shall make no law respecting an Establishment of Religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof
Meaning that the government cannot establish a religion - nor can they ban one either. To me it sounds like they're pretty much saying, "stop telling us not to pray - the 1A allows us to pray if we want."


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Conservatives in my state see themselves as the sheep and not the wolves, which is the problem.
Considering all conservatives as wolves is a bit unjust really. Not to mention that just because you might see them as "wolves" doesn't mean they don't have the same rights to free speech that you might grant to "sheep".
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  #12  
Old 04-09-2013, 06:51 AM
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D_Yeti_Esquire D_Yeti_Esquire is offline
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Quote:
Meaning that the government cannot establish a religion - nor can they ban one either. To me it sounds like they're pretty much saying, "stop telling us not to pray - the 1A allows us to pray if we want."
Isn't the point that these invocations remove the "if we want" part of the equation? If you don't want to pray, being required to take part in a group invocation isn't a choice.

In the end though, I've been to Rowan county. This really was just political grandstanding because of a heavily Christian electorate. Rowan county would not have voted it forward even if it had come to the floor. They were not going to pay for lawyers to trial balloon this thing through the courts.
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  #13  
Old 04-09-2013, 11:44 AM
Duelist925 Duelist925 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PepperElf View Post
I'm not entirely against this. but i'll explain why.



Meaning that the government cannot establish a religion - nor can they ban one either. To me it sounds like they're pretty much saying, "stop telling us not to pray - the 1A allows us to pray if we want."
There is literally nothing stopping them from praying. They can pray to their hearts content. They can pray to every god, devil, and etc ever mentioned anywhere.

They just can't force anyone else to pray to their particular god.

Quote:
Considering all conservatives as wolves is a bit unjust really. Not to mention that just because you might see them as "wolves" doesn't mean they don't have the same rights to free speech that you might grant to "sheep".
Noones suggesting otherwise.

The issue is, the "wolves" want to silence the "sheep" as it were.
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  #14  
Old 04-09-2013, 02:53 PM
indigo indigo is offline
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It's not just Rowan County - Stokes County is getting hit with a lawsuit as well. http://www.wxii12.com/news/local-new...z/-/index.html

Basic gist is that the school board is opening with prayer, graduation includes several prayers, and they have a religious service that certain students are required to attend for a grade.
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  #15  
Old 04-09-2013, 04:46 PM
PepperElf PepperElf is offline
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in my opinion and invocation is not forcing others to pray. no one's being told "you have to pray". if someone doesn't want to pray then... well then they can think of spaghetti while the invoker is praying.


part of me wonders if the issue is more along the lines of "you're not being told you can't pray - you just have to be silent about it"
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  #16  
Old 04-09-2013, 10:21 PM
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D_Yeti_Esquire D_Yeti_Esquire is offline
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in my opinion and invocation is not forcing others to pray. no one's being told "you have to pray". if someone doesn't want to pray then... well then they can think of spaghetti while the invoker is praying.
That still requires a person to deviate from the accepted normal behavior of their position. A group invocation is an element of a unified group identity so it forces members of that group to set themselves apart.

If the group invocation was everyone saying "Latazzzzzzzzzz" for ten seconds with people choosing to pray if they wanted to, it wouldn't exclude anybody. This version forces people to either comply or abstain.
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  #17  
Old 04-09-2013, 10:42 PM
PepperElf PepperElf is offline
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i dunno what you just said contradicted itself.

that a group invocation "forces members of the group to set themselves apart" but that it somehow *doesn't* do it if they say something like "latazzzzzz"?


Not really. it would still be a group invocation with the same level of "force" that a specific prayer holds.

in a group invocation only one person speaks. everyone else is silent. therefore no one is forced to pray.

saying a madeup word would still in essence be the same - one person prays and everyone else is quiet. the only difference is in one it's a prayer you recognize the words in the other you don't. ... so that would mean saying a prayer in latin would be OK too. or klingon. (and yes I did find a copy of the Lord's Prayer in Klingon so... yeah it's possible.)

http://www.voiceshome.com/lang_klingon.php hah

Last edited by PepperElf; 04-09-2013 at 10:52 PM.
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  #18  
Old 04-09-2013, 11:04 PM
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D_Yeti_Esquire D_Yeti_Esquire is offline
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Actually lataz is just a joking word for "later" that I extended. The point is, there's absolutely nothing about saying "later" and being silent that's going to grate anyone the wrong way other than me phrasing it a ridiculous way. If someone remains silent and prays after it, no bother.

If someone invokes a religious figure and I immediately remove the silence by shuffling out loudly I am very much identifying myself as either not praying or not being reverent. Either way, I am in a position of having to deal with religion. In my version, religion can still be present but the group (or a minority in the group) is not burdened with dealing with it.
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  #19  
Old 04-10-2013, 06:29 AM
Duelist925 Duelist925 is offline
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You're rather missing the point Pepper--As Yeti is pointing out, a group invocation of a religious nature automatically pushes anyone not of that religion aside, making them separate from the group as a whole.

And that doesn't even delve into how such a thing might make the people involved feel. I'd probably be uncomfortable during a prayer session that was predominately not of my own faith, especially if it were something forced on me during a mandatory part of my job/schooling.
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  #20  
Old 04-10-2013, 11:38 PM
PepperElf PepperElf is offline
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Quote:
Actually lataz is just a joking word for "later" that I extended. The point is, there's absolutely nothing about saying "later" and being silent that's going to grate anyone the wrong way other than me phrasing it a ridiculous way. If someone remains silent and prays after it, no bother.
By that reasoning the same can be said about a prayer. The deciding factor being whether or not others are offended by hearing a prayer.

And then using their offense to try to find a way to justify silencing the people praying.



Kinda like a tilted kilt sign we have here. some parents were offended by boobies in tight clothes, so the city tried to find a way to relook at the 1A and zoning laws to see if they could find a way to shut it down.


"missing the point" - nope. I personally feel to many people use the "separation of church/state" ... as a means to silence people of faiths. that people are turning the 1A away from freedom of speech & religion into "freedom to not be offended"

Last edited by PepperElf; 04-10-2013 at 11:45 PM.
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