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  #11  
Old 11-07-2017, 01:40 PM
Canarr Canarr is offline
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Addendum, just to make that clear: I am not arguing *against* gun laws. I live in a country with very strict gun laws, and I feel quite good about that. I just don't believe that any kind of half-assed measures will solve the US problems. If you want to solve that, then you need to stop the proliferation of guns, not simply tell people how they need to store them, or how long they have to wait for them.
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  #12  
Old 11-07-2017, 07:41 PM
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Greenday Greenday is offline
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Originally Posted by Greenday View Post
Why don't all 50 states require background checks for all gun sales?
Why aren't their mandatory wait periods for purchasing guns in all 50 states?
Why are there laws basically making it impossible to hold a seller responsible for what the buyer did with the gun letting them just claim ignorance every time they knowingly let someone perform a straw purchase?
Storing guns and ammo separately. Mandatory training for anyone who wants to own a gun. Etc.
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Originally Posted by Canarr View Post
Such as?
How do you think criminals and gang members get guns? In the majority of states, you can buy a gun from a private seller, hand them cash, and walk away with a gun. No background investigation to prevent felons from buying. This and straw purchases are the result of most violent crimes.

Suicides. Crime of passion. Another 72 hours of waiting may be the time necessary for people to get help.

Holding a seller responsible for repeatedly selling to people used to commit crimes would mean they'd actually stop straw purchases.

Storing guns and ammo separately is a no brainer. Countless children have been killed because some dumbass kept the ammo with the gun and the kid decided to "play" with it. Also, a lot of guns get stolen because of improper storage.

Mandatory training = less accidental deaths.

These are all super basic laws that'd 100% be guaranteed to reduce deaths from guns.
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  #13  
Old 11-07-2017, 08:10 PM
Gravekeeper Gravekeeper is offline
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The incident report, first obtained by local NBC affiliate KPRC, shows that two police officers apprehended Kelley, who was then 21 years old, at a bus terminal in downtown El Paso after being dispatched there for a missing person report.

A witness on the scene told the officers that Kelley "suffered from mental disorders" and had planned to flee the hospital and take a bus out of state. The witness added that Kelley "was a danger to himself and others" and had already been caught sneaking firearms onto the Holloman Airforce base, and had made death threats against his military superiors, according to the report.
But hey, Trump said that "extreme vetting" for gun ownership wouldn't do anything. "Extreme vetting" is only for brown people.
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  #14  
Old 11-07-2017, 09:58 PM
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Greenday Greenday is offline
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Just got told on another forum that someone with a gun stopping him in the church should count for something.

My counterpoint: Because people were allowed to have guns, 26 innocent people died in the first place.
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  #15  
Old 11-07-2017, 11:33 PM
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Talon Talon is offline
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I understand almost half of the shooting victims were children or teens.

Yeah I got nothing. If the USA goes more than a month without a mass-shooting, better buy a lottery ticket.
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  #16  
Old 11-08-2017, 06:46 AM
Canarr Canarr is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenday View Post
How do you think criminals and gang members get guns? In the majority of states, you can buy a gun from a private seller, hand them cash, and walk away with a gun. No background investigation to prevent felons from buying. This and straw purchases are the result of most violent crimes.

Suicides. Crime of passion. Another 72 hours of waiting may be the time necessary for people to get help.
You're right; I was thinking only along the lines of mass shootings, and neglecting the vast majority of gun deaths in the US. Against those "normal" shootings, your measures would be effective, yes.
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  #17  
Old 11-08-2017, 10:20 AM
mjr mjr is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenday View Post
My counterpoint: Because people were allowed to have guns, 26 innocent people died in the first place.
So when are you getting rid of yours? Legit question. You said you and your wife own guns. So when are you getting rid of them? Saying "we just use them for target shooting" is irrelevant, because of your counterpoint.

Let's start with the criminals and those in Congress, and all the celebrities with the crocodile tears and security details. You know. The ones who usually look down upon those like the ones who were murdered in the church, because they're simple country folk. Until evil strikes, then they "care".

Did you think that people might be more willing to have better gun control if you take them from the criminals first?

There are more firearms in this country than there are people. that's just a fact. And a buyback isn't going to work.
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  #18  
Old 11-08-2017, 02:33 PM
TheHuckster TheHuckster is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mjr View Post
So when are you getting rid of yours? Legit question. You said you and your wife own guns. So when are you getting rid of them? Saying "we just use them for target shooting" is irrelevant, because of your counterpoint.

Let's start with the criminals and those in Congress, and all the celebrities with the crocodile tears and security details. You know. The ones who usually look down upon those like the ones who were murdered in the church, because they're simple country folk. Until evil strikes, then they "care".

Did you think that people might be more willing to have better gun control if you take them from the criminals first?

There are more firearms in this country than there are people. that's just a fact. And a buyback isn't going to work.
Strawman.

Greenday is talking about closing a loophole that allows people to purchase firearms without background checks. Something that is totally reasonable and is just an expansion of existing laws that restrict sales.

Greenday presumably attained his firearms by undergoing background checks and purchasing them without benefit of said loophole. Thus, he doesn't need to get rid of his guns to be consistent with his argument.

This is, again, what I can't fucking stand about any debate of this nature. Someone brings up a loophole that we should close or tighten regulations, and suddenly people like you fall down the slippery slope into strawman-land where it means they want to eliminate guns entirely. Seriously, what is it about these kinds of debates that prevents reasonable thinking separating "let's make it harder for criminals to attain guns" from "let's get rid of all guns!"
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  #19  
Old 11-08-2017, 06:59 PM
mjr mjr is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHuckster View Post
Greenday is talking about closing a loophole that allows people to purchase firearms without background checks. Something that is totally reasonable and is just an expansion of existing laws that restrict sales.
Which would not have prevented the shooter from getting his weapons.

Quote:
Greenday presumably attained his firearms by undergoing background checks and purchasing them without benefit of said loophole.
Again, the shooter obtained his firearms legally, and passed background checks. The Air Force made the mistake of not submitting his name to the NIC list as a felon.

Quote:
Seriously, what is it about these kinds of debates that prevents reasonable thinking separating "let's make it harder for criminals to attain guns" from "let's get rid of all guns!"
Because there are people who want just that.
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  #20  
Old 11-08-2017, 09:12 PM
TheHuckster TheHuckster is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mjr View Post
Which would not have prevented the shooter from getting his weapons.
Could still prevent other gun crimes. I agree that stricter gun laws will never eliminate all shootings, but reduction is still something.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mjr View Post
Again, the shooter obtained his firearms legally, and passed background checks. The Air Force made the mistake of not submitting his name to the NIC list as a felon.
He also was at a mental health facility 5 years ago, and escaped out of it. There were warning signs beyond just a missing report from the military.

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Because there are people who want just that.
You were responding directly to Greenday, who clearly does not believe that. So why bring it up with him?
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