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  #11  
Old 09-19-2017, 08:41 PM
TheHuckster TheHuckster is offline
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Originally Posted by s_stabeler View Post
I have already addressed this point. Colleges don't need to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the student broke the rule. Generally, the alibi would have come up when the college was investigating- and you can usually appeal an expulsion if you weren't provided an opportunity to defend yourself. It still has nothing to do with the court case.
When it comes to relatively petty rules like alcohol on campus or cheating, you are right. It's a college matter, and they can investigate internally. However, when it comes to criminal cases, if the student in question was found innocent in a court of law, you are effectively saying that despite being acquitted:

1.) The student has a bogus mark on his/her permanent record.
2.) The student has been deprived of an education he/she probably still owes tuition for, provided they made student loans.

They are hardly well-off after these events which shouldn't have happened in the first place. You tell me how that is, in any sense of the term, right.

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Originally Posted by s_stabeler View Post
If you're fired by your employer, then proving you didn't do what you were fired for won't get you your job back- this is the same thing.
It could affect your ability to collect unemployment, though. Plus, people have sued for unlawful termination in cases where they've been acquitted for a crime that they were fired for upon indictment.
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  #12  
Old 09-20-2017, 02:16 AM
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D_Yeti_Esquire D_Yeti_Esquire is offline
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Honestly, this whole thing is a case where I think the fact it's the Trump administration is clouding the issue.

I believe right now the recommendations they're looking at are the ones from the American Bar Association. The ABA in drafting these recommendations brought in both victims advocates and advocates for the accused, so basically both sides gave up stuff.

https://www.americanbar.org/content/...thcheckdam.pdf

To my understanding the big concessions victims rights people gave up were the defendant has a right to an attorney in whatever proceeding occurs and the defendant has the right to question in the form of written questions. (Currently there is no requirement, just the accusation.)

What the accused rights people gave up was the burden of proof which they were originally looking for the legal definition of clear and convincing (a higher burden) and after safeguards were put in place were comfortable with the lower burden or "preponderance of evidence".

So all they're looking for here is some sort of standard wherin before someone is kicked out of a school, an impartial panel has to look at both sides (by law) and if they can come to a unanimous decision that the Brock's of the world did it, they can do what they will.
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  #13  
Old 09-20-2017, 05:13 PM
s_stabeler s_stabeler is offline
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Originally Posted by TheHuckster View Post
When it comes to relatively petty rules like alcohol on campus or cheating, you are right. It's a college matter, and they can investigate internally. However, when it comes to criminal cases, if the student in question was found innocent in a court of law, you are effectively saying that despite being acquitted:

SNIP

I don't actually entirely disagree with you, but the answer is that the agreement the student signed included provision for termination of the contract under the disciplinary procedure of the university of college. that is why expulsion is considered legal. Strictly speaking, a particularly harsh university could still require the repayment of the full year's tuition.

I happen to agree that you should be able to get a rehearing of the case as regards expulsion.

also, you can sue for anything. provided the proper dismissal procedure was followed, you'd lose.

Last edited by MadMike; 09-20-2017 at 11:53 PM. Reason: We've already read it, no need to quote the whole thing.
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  #14  
Old 09-20-2017, 08:24 PM
TheHuckster TheHuckster is offline
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Originally Posted by s_stabeler View Post
I don't actually entirely disagree with you, but the answer is that the agreement the student signed included provision for termination of the contract under the disciplinary procedure of the university of college. that is why expulsion is considered legal. Strictly speaking, a particularly harsh university could still require the repayment of the full year's tuition.
In the context of this thread, the implication is that laws greatly encourage colleges to adopt policies like this, since if they let an accused rapist continue college after acquittal, they are subject to loss of funding by Title IX.

Now, I understand perhaps temporarily suspending a student while the investigation/trial is ongoing, but if Title IX strongly recommends anything above that, then this is where the problem lies, and is what is being discussed in the OP.
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  #15  
Old 09-20-2017, 08:58 PM
Canarr Canarr is offline
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also, you can sue for anything. provided the proper dismissal procedure was followed, you'd lose.
Or maybe not.

The university, Barrett responded, misunderstood the importance of cross-examination for assessing witness credibility. Miami’s “claim that no amount of cross-examination could have changed the minds of the hearing panel members,” the judge concluded, “arguably undercuts the fairness of the hearing.” The “arguably” was a nice touch.

Barrett’s decision marked the 59th judicial setback for a college or university since 2013 in a due-process lawsuit brought by a student accused of sexual assault. (In four additional cases, the school settled a lawsuit before any judicial decision occurred.)
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  #16  
Old 09-21-2017, 05:40 AM
Tanasi Tanasi is offline
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Several years ago a friend of my youngest brother was expelled from the local university for something he was accused of across town that had absolutely nothing to do with the university or anyone associated with it beyond himself. Ultimately the DA dropped charges as they really couldn't prove their charges. The university refused to allow him back on campus or allow him to finish his degree in any other way. He tried to appeal and when he showed for his hearing they had him arrested for trespassing and he couldn't be represented by anyone else. He hired an attorney that really hates the university and he got the expulsion reversed and a truck load of money mostly because of not following their own rules and denying his rights under those rules.
All that being typed I believe the absolutely did what he was accused as he's not even smart enough to be a moron.
The local uni seems quick to dismiss male students and especially so if they're athletes but female students are given the benefit of the doubt and if an athlete swept under the rug. All three of my daughters and my wife graduated from said uni and they've commented on the one sided-ness of the uni's "justice" system.
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  #17  
Old 09-21-2017, 10:47 AM
s_stabeler s_stabeler is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHuckster View Post
In the context of this thread, the implication is that laws greatly encourage colleges to adopt policies like this, since if they let an accused rapist continue college after acquittal, they are subject to loss of funding by Title IX.

Now, I understand perhaps temporarily suspending a student while the investigation/trial is ongoing, but if Title IX strongly recommends anything above that, then this is where the problem lies, and is what is being discussed in the OP.
I don't disagree- I was arguing mjr's claim that it isn't acceptable for a uni to rule on a sexual assault case rather than leaving it to the courts. I actually happen to agree that an accusation shouldn't be an automatic expulsion if unproven, and Title IX does need reform by the sounds of things (in that Title IX sounds like it treats the accusation alone as sufficient grounds for expulsion. If the uni actually investigates and- i a fair hearing- deems the kid should be expelled, that's the end of it.)

And Canarr, that actually supports my argument, surprisingly enough. The issue wasn't the uni's ability to expel the student, but that they didn't follow their own procedures properly.(Basically, the kid won because the hearing was a kangaroo court- he could not have proven that he was innocent. That's unacceptable regardless.)
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  #18  
Old 09-21-2017, 03:08 PM
Canarr Canarr is offline
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Originally Posted by s_stabeler View Post
And Canarr, that actually supports my argument, surprisingly enough. The issue wasn't the uni's ability to expel the student, but that they didn't follow their own procedures properly.(Basically, the kid won because the hearing was a kangaroo court- he could not have proven that he was innocent. That's unacceptable regardless.)
Honestly: any hearing in front of a tribunal by people without any judicial training is a kangaroo court. What qualifications do the average college and faculty members have that would enable them to fairly and justly judge this?

And while I'll grant that there are certain similarities between the Title IX tribunals and an employer's options of terminating employees for breaking company regulations, there is one important distinction: clear rules. Generally, a company will have clear employee regulations, and there are decades of legal precedents behind them.

Sex is rarely that clear-cut. Sex is messy, and emotional, and difficult to describe and regulate, especially once alcohol is involved. Memories get fuzzy over time, what was said or done may be in dispute. And then you have a bunch of amateurs who are supposed to decide who is right and who is wrong? With the strong implication that, unless they find a certain number of students guilty of wrongdoing ("One in Five!"), they're not doing their job right?

Do you really think that is a recipe for a fair trial?
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  #19  
Old 09-22-2017, 12:17 PM
s_stabeler s_stabeler is offline
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Judicial training is just training on what the law is. Plus, juries- which would be used in cases of sexual assault- don't get judicial training. There's no reason why the people who comprise these panels can't be trained on what the college's rules are.

Again, the issue isn't with the colleges expelling the students- it's that the process isn't fair. Fix the process, don't throw it out.
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  #20  
Old 09-29-2017, 11:26 AM
Canarr Canarr is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by s_stabeler View Post
Judicial training is just training on what the law is. Plus, juries- which would be used in cases of sexual assault- don't get judicial training. There's no reason why the people who comprise these panels can't be trained on what the college's rules are.

Again, the issue isn't with the colleges expelling the students- it's that the process isn't fair. Fix the process, don't throw it out.
This here is an open letter to DeVos from several organizations and people "who have spent years actually working to prevent and address sexual assault in schools" about the announced discontinuation of the Title IX Guidance.

They claim that:
Secretary DeVos continues to show callous disregard for the thousands of students who are subject to sexual violence and abuse every year. Instead, she is very clear that her main if not sole concern is the tiny number1 of students wrongfully found responsible for rape, without any evidence that this is a wholesale problem or extends beyond the few one-sided anecdotes she provides. And while she claims that the rights of the accused have not been fairly protected, the Guidance requires that campus policies and procedures be “adequate, reliable, impartial, and prompt and include the opportunity for both parties to present witnesses and other evidence.”

They speak of sexual assault, of rapists and survivors of rape; they claim that not giving the accuser the right to appeal the college's decision would be "leaving survivors with no recourse on appeal". They are saying that students' "lives are at stake" if colleges are no longer able to judge other students for committing sexual assault. However, they aren't saying a damn thing about what role law enforcement is supposed to play here.

So... tell me again how these are not supposed to be criminal proceedings?
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