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  #31  
Old 11-26-2018, 08:19 PM
Canarr Canarr is offline
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Originally Posted by mjr View Post
I could ask that same question about a number of Conservative positions that many of you complain about.

Nothing happens in a vacuum. Every change in law affects everyone, whether they know it or not.
So you oppose accepting Trans people - and Queer people, I guess? - on the principle that changes in law to accomodate them may have influence on your life? Do you oppose changes to tax or property or criminal law on the same principle?

What changes in law do you see concerning Trans or Queer people that concern you?
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  #32  
Old 11-26-2018, 09:43 PM
Gravekeeper Gravekeeper is offline
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What if I believe it does affect me, but in ways you wouldn't care about?
Then you're wrong and there's no reason for me to care about it in the first place?

If you want to persist in this ridiculous line of argument then put up or shut up. Stop dancing around the bush as to what your actual problem is here. Unless you already know your problem here is wrong and don't want to admit it.
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  #33  
Old 11-26-2018, 11:52 PM
Valinor Valinor is offline
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Stephen Colbert had a great take on this :

"Why would you want to change your age at 69? You just got to the only funny number."

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Originally Posted by mjr View Post
this pesky little thing called "biology"
That pesky little thing called "biology" has found that a transgender person's brain matches that of the gender they identify as, not the gender they were born as.

Researchers have found that a person who was born male but identifies as female can be shown to have a brain that functions similarly to a woman's brain, not a man's, and vice versa for somebody born female but identifies as male.

So that pesky little thing called "biology" actually seems to support the argument that transgender individuals are, in fact, the gender they identify as, not the gender they were born as.

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Originally Posted by Stormraven View Post
Well, if he can get scans of people 20 years younger than him, prove that they are similar in makeup and processing, then show that his MRI matches theirs, then I'm fine with it.
I'll go along with that. If there is scientific evidence that supports his contention that he is 20 years younger than his chronological age, then so be it.

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Originally Posted by mjr View Post
I actually know a guy who is fairly liberal who's on my side on this, too.
Yeah, and there are conservatives who support LGBT rights. So what's your point?

Not all liberals agree on all things. Not all conservatives agree on all things.

Political views, like gender, are a spectrum, not a binary. Not everybody is 100% liberal or 100% conservative. A person can be, and many are, liberal on some issues and conservative on others.

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Originally Posted by mjr View Post
What if I believe it does affect me, but in ways you wouldn't care about?
Are people here supposed to guess how you believe it affects you?

Do you want the folks here to just take your word for it that it does harm you in some fashion, without your needing to even specify how?

I'm pretty sure that debate forums don't work that way. If you have a position, then you need to defend it with arguments.

When somebody asks "How does it affect you?" and you simply respond, "It does affect me" and don't say how ... That's not much of an argument.
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Last edited by Valinor; 11-26-2018 at 11:58 PM.
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  #34  
Old 01-09-2019, 01:17 PM
mjr mjr is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Valinor View Post
That pesky little thing called "biology" has found that a transgender person's brain matches that of the gender they identify as, not the gender they were born as.
That pesky thing called "biology" also has something called DNA and chromosomes.

Quote:
Researchers have found that a person who was born male but identifies as female can be shown to have a brain that functions similarly to a woman's brain, not a man's, and vice versa for somebody born female but identifies as male.
Researchers have also found that we share over 90% of our DNA with dolphins and pigs.

Quote:
Are people here supposed to guess how you believe it affects you?

Do you want the folks here to just take your word for it that it does harm you in some fashion, without your needing to even specify how?

I'm pretty sure that debate forums don't work that way. If you have a position, then you need to defend it with arguments.

When somebody asks "How does it affect you?" and you simply respond, "It does affect me" and don't say how ... That's not much of an argument.
I would argue that it may affect me spiritually. But I'm sure a lot of you on here don't really care about that.

And I'm sure that a lot of this doesn't affect all (most?) of you, except "Look! I feel good about myself because I'm tolerant and accepting!"
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  #35  
Old 01-10-2019, 06:31 PM
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catcul catcul is offline
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So you're not bothered that an anti-LGBT group has lied to you about trans people?
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  #36  
Old 01-10-2019, 07:18 PM
s_stabeler s_stabeler is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mjr View Post
I would argue that it may affect me spiritually. But I'm sure a lot of you on here don't really care about that.

And I'm sure that a lot of this doesn't affect all (most?) of you, except "Look! I feel good about myself because I'm tolerant and accepting!"
1. No, I don't particularly care if you believe you are spiritually harmed by the fact that someone else doesn't abide by the terms of your religion, since that's imposing your religious beliefs on someone who isn't a follower of said religion.
2. Seriously? you're going to claim that anyone disagreeing with you is virtue signalling? No. All that is is basically trying to shut down any debate.
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  #37  
Old 01-11-2019, 08:00 AM
Gravekeeper Gravekeeper is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mjr View Post
Researchers have also found that we share over 90% of our DNA with dolphins and pigs.
.....so?



Quote:
Originally Posted by mjr View Post
I would argue that it may affect me spiritually. But I'm sure a lot of you on here don't really care about that.
Bluntly? No, I fucking don't. Whatever invisible sky fairy you believe in has absolutely zero bearing on this. Zero. Zilch. If your invisible sky fairy is demanding you impose your belief on other people to their detriment then I not only don't care but actively dislike and oppose them.



Quote:
Originally Posted by mjr View Post
And I'm sure that a lot of this doesn't affect all (most?) of you, except "Look! I feel good about myself because I'm tolerant and accepting!"
Not being an asshole to other people isn't virtue signalling and fuck me am I tired of hearing that bullshit sort of argument thrown out whenever someone is just arguing in favour of being a decent human being.
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  #38  
Old 01-12-2019, 06:12 PM
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D_Yeti_Esquire D_Yeti_Esquire is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mjr View Post

I would argue that it may affect me spiritually. But I'm sure a lot of you on here don't really care about that.

And I'm sure that a lot of this doesn't affect all (most?) of you, except "Look! I feel good about myself because I'm tolerant and accepting!"
I'm not going to argue about the DNA stuff because like I stated before, any time you'd like to dig down into what we know about genetics and epigenetics relating to that topic, that information is there. We're past studying chromosomes and into various genes and their aleles (variants). A lot of what you're concerned about is actually handled by other research which I can link you if you're interested. Science doesn't know everything related to it, but there's a LOT that's already been covered.

--

That said, I actually AM sympathetic to it "affecting you spiritually" but like Gravekeeper I'm more on the athiest end of the spectrum. I suspect the closest aproximation of what you are feeling is what I feel specifically about right wing radio. That is - if I have any spirituality in me its more towards the ideals of the US Republic (plurality, unity of parts, crorrection, representation, equity of opportunity).

And that's where I think I disagree with you fully - I can argue (quite easily actually) that on a fundamental, dogmatic level people like Savage, Ingraham or Hannity actively court dictatorship (because they have no unifying policy besides party loyalty) but I don't actively try to force my "control" onto people's lives. Were I to do that, it would look something like outlawing speech that violate certain norms I set out. This is where something like the fairness doctrine goes into overdrive and the second we find you the least bit seditious you lose your license to broadcast.

Does it actually hurt me to listen to these people? -eh... I hate that they are paid to be "buddies" to the "working man" and push policies and party loyalties I find against their interest and to be entertaining. It bugs me that friends I've had over the years spew inadvertant hatred in my direction because that time spent weaponizes them into political capital - they do not suspect nor do I fight with them about politics. There is a part of my soul that hurts from that which I suspect is the same thing Christians would generally feel towards someone abusing their fellow man.

But this is where I find flaw in your argument. Where I would argue the Government has no place enforcing religious doctrine I ALSO respect that the Government has no place in enforcing political ideology. Some controls I think are negotiable (and just like trans issues) I think some things can be explained and should be researched and not taken as dogmatic fact from the left or right.
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  #39  
Old 01-13-2019, 12:18 AM
Gravekeeper Gravekeeper is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D_Yeti_Esquire View Post
That said, I actually AM sympathetic to it "affecting you spiritually" but like Gravekeeper I'm more on the athiest end of the spectrum.
I'm not even an atheist. I just have zero patience for anyone that tries to justify the way they mistreat other people by pointing at the sky.
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  #40  
Old 01-13-2019, 05:14 PM
Canarr Canarr is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mjr View Post
I would argue that it may affect me spiritually. But I'm sure a lot of you on here don't really care about that.

And I'm sure that a lot of this doesn't affect all (most?) of you, except "Look! I feel good about myself because I'm tolerant and accepting!"
So... is the issue biology or religion? Because if it affects you spiritually, it seems like you don't really care about the "pesky thing called biology" as much as about whether or not trans people offend your religious sensibilities.

Personally, I'm not very religious, but I am a firm believer in one's spirituality extending only to one's own actions. How can someone else's actions influence your spirituality?
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