Afterlife: Why only two options?

[Rageaholic]

This generally refers to Christian beliefs, but could apply to other religions with similar views. According to the Bible, good people go to heaven, bad people go to hell. That's simple enough, but when you think about it, it's a pretty scary idea. You've got one place which is supposed to be so infinitly awesome and better than all the best stuff on earth, but if you fuck up you go to a place that is a million times worse than death itself.

What I'm wondering is where is the middle ground? People aren't necessarly good or bad. There are some people who are complete monsters, others who are just selfish jerks but aren't completely evil, others who are just ordinary people who live their life, and others who are good people. Also, according to many Christian beliefs, no one is good enough for heaven and are damned by default (unless they accept Jesus). That's... harsh. Even if we aren't worthy of heaven, that doesn't mean we automatically deserve the worst fate imaginable. That's what people mean when they talk about ordinary people suffering the same fate as someone like Hitler or Osama Bin Laden. It just doesn't make sense.

Life is pretty complex and not black and white, I hate to think that the afterlife (if there is one) comes down to one or the other.

[smileyeagle1021]

well, I can't speak for a lot of religions, but within the Christian umbrella the LDS church has somewhat done what you've talked about, there is the Celestial kingdom, which is the highest level, this is reserved for those who have stayed "Temple Worthy" their whole lives, then there is the terrestial kingdom which is for the people who were otherwise good people but were in some way not temple worthy (mainly not being a member of the "true" church), then there is the telestial kingdom which is for the people who were neither really good or really bad, they just were average joes, and this will still be better than life on Earth, then for those who are actually evil there is outer darkness, which as I understand it, isn't hellfire as mainline Christianity understands it, but is more of a solitary confinement idea, you are in a spiritual vacuum.

[Kheldarson]

Catholicism has three levels: Heaven, Purgatory, and Hell. Most people go to Purgatory to be purified. As in, you know, you're a decent person but still did a bunch of little bad stuff in your life so need to get rid of that shit before going into the perfection which is Heaven.

[Gravekeeper]

This is pretty much a Christian thing, yes. Buddhism is a sliding scale that accounts for pretty much anything. Traditional Tibetan Buddhism for example has like 17 different places you could go but they were metaphorical and none were eternal ( You always get infinite retries in any form of Buddhism >.> ).

Although, in fairness, the absolute two places thing is more of a modern function of Abrahamic religion. It was not originally that way but it evolved that way I imagine for the usual judgemental dickery / political reasons and/or mistranslations. Between Christianity, Judaism and Islam there are/were originally *7* different Hells/Underworlds/Places of the dead. Some were temporary ( Purgatory/Limbo sort of places ), some were permanent punishments ( Hell, Gehenna, Tatarus ) others were just a place the dead went good or bad ( Sheol, Hades ).

Many of the different underwords have been scratched out and replaced with "Hell" in modern translations. So its more like you've got two places now because everything was intentionally or unintentionally consolidated.

Its the same thing with Heaven, really. You've got Heaven, Paradise, Eden, Jannah, Sidrat, Olam Haba, etc. All basically consolidated into the same place by translators.

[HYHYBT]

Even within the binary framework, there are variations. Some believe that the unsaved simply are not resurrected, but cease to exist at death. That's still only two possibilities, but one of them isn't eternal torture. (It even lets atheists have their way.)

[MrsEclipse]

As a Lutheran, I was taught that it wasn't good/bad, it was "Those who go with God" and "Those who choose not to." If you were separated from God in life, you would be separated from Him for all eternity, but if you accepted him and his forgiveness, than you went to Paradise with Him. All people are sinners from birth, and all sin is equal: that is, it's separation from God. If you truly want forgiveness, and you ask for it, then you are still with God.

So it was less good/bad and more faithful/unfaithful.

[Gravekeeper]

So it was less good/bad and more faithful/unfaithful.

That actually strikes me as worse than just good/bad.

[jackfaire]

For me I have never liked the description of Heaven. At all. It seems like a horrible way to spend Eternity.

I always liked the idea of it being a big mall full of everything man has ever created and you can enjoy it all.

[siead_lietrathua]

kind of a cute cartoon about afterlife for a viking http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0L0e5A0ol8 though a bit long. semi-related for the ending.

vikings divide 3 or 4 ways, depending on the texts you read. Valhalla is most known, for those that die in battle. some texts say freya has an equilivant to valhalla as well. Hel is where good people go, hifhel for the bad. it takes ALOT more to be considered bad though, you basically have to be a murderer, rapist, etc to go there.

[Rageaholic]

As a Lutheran, I was taught that it wasn't good/bad, it was "Those who go with God" and "Those who choose not to." If you were separated from God in life, you would be separated from Him for all eternity, but if you accepted him and his forgiveness, than you went to Paradise with Him. All people are sinners from birth, and all sin is equal: that is, it's separation from God. If you truly want forgiveness, and you ask for it, then you are still with God.

So it was less good/bad and more faithful/unfaithful.

That's where a few problems lie. "choosing" seems to mean following the faith or not following the faith. Since one would not be sure about the truth until they die, it's hard to blame someone for not choosing god while on earth. Especially since there's so many different interpretations.

[Skunkle]

Still, it seems all most Christian sects ask is that a person "accepts that Jesus is the Son of God and their/our Savior." But then, some sects say that that isn't enough; that you MUST do that AND do good deeds in God's name to get to Heaven. I'm not sure which sects are which.

Or then there's the Calvinist theory, which involves predestination - that God chooses souls from before birth to be either Saved or Fallen, and that nothing one does in life can change one's selected position.

Can anyone who knows their Bible better tell me what the Bible says about Heaven, Purgatory, etc. and what Heaven is described as? And is there truth to the rumor that it doesn't describe Hell as we now know it, as a place where "the bad people go" per se? I'd read bits and bobs about that, and had assumed there was at least some truth after noting that one of the intentions of Schlafly's supposed conservative re-translation of the Bible was including modern-day-type descriptions of "Hell," what it is and what it's for.

[Rageaholic]

Still, it seems all most Christian sects ask is that a person "accepts that Jesus is the Son of God and their/our Savior." But then, some sects say that that isn't enough; that you MUST do that AND do good deeds in God's name to get to Heaven. I'm not sure which sects are which.

Yeah, that's where the confusion comes from. There are always those who quote bible verses about false prophets and how those who think they're "saved" are really not. Once I really started thinking about what I was supposed to believe, the doubts and questions came.

Or then there's the Calvinist theory, which involves predestination - that God chooses souls from before birth to be either Saved or Fallen, and that nothing one does in life can change one's selected position.

Don't get me started on Calvinism. First they give you this horrific idea that god only plans on saving a few, while damning the rest to unspeakable horrors. Their jusitification is that we all deserve this horrific fate because we are naturally evil. So Calvinists are bombarded with messages about how evil and depraved humanity is and how we all deserve to be tormented forever simply for being born imperfect. This implies that any suffering on earth is also deserved so naturally, they are cold toward anyone's suffering on earth. It's exactly like an abusive relationship, living in constant fear and terror, but having your self worth shattered so horribly you believe you deserve it and then some.

And since they believe that god planned all of this, they also believe that god planned on damning the majority of humanity to hell (with some even saying that god is glorified in their damnation!!!). In other words, god's purpose for most humans was to damn them to eternal torment. It's by far the most horrific, depressing, and downright EVIL description of god I have ever heard of. I'm wondering how many serial killers or terrorists held onto strict Calvinist views because that kind of teaching is the perfect recipe for creating a monster.

[Skunkle]

Westboro Baptist are a Calvinist sect - they take it further, claiming that God works directly through Phelps and, thus, he is righteous is condemning people AND knows who's saved and who isn't. What's funny (in a way that's also both scary and sad) is that as I understand it, by Calvinist doctrine, there is absolutely nothing a person can do in life to fall if they're saved. NOTHING. The saved are, naturally, everyone in Phelps' church. And yet, when a member manages to leave and ditch the place, they've claimed that said people are not saved. WTF??

Perhaps John Calvin needed a way to explain why God doesn't magically fix every atrocity in the world, so came up with this? There are more tenets to Calvinism than predestination and born depravity, but I don't know the details offhand. I'm also not sure how their claim that we're born as sinners naturally (via Original Sin) differs from the same belief in other Christianity beyond the further idea that some of said people are damned forever.

Don't know about false prophets. What that sounds like is, "You prayed to the wrong Jesus Christ." Wha-- there's more than one?? As long as you're not claiming that you've been saved by some man on earth who claims to be God or Jesus, I don't think there IS a way to be saved by asking Jesus to be your savior and have screwed up and prayed to a false prophet - Jesus is Jesus.

[Kheldarson]

Can anyone who knows their Bible better tell me what the Bible says about Heaven, Purgatory, etc. and what Heaven is described as? And is there truth to the rumor that it doesn't describe Hell as we now know it, as a place where "the bad people go" per se? I'd read bits and bobs about that, and had assumed there was at least some truth after noting that one of the intentions of Schlafly's supposed conservative re-translation of the Bible was including modern-day-type descriptions of "Hell," what it is and what it's for.

There's honestly not a lot of description. Like, any. When God created the heavens and the earth, Sheol (the netherworld) isn't addressed at all, yet that was part of the world view of the Hebrews.

But in terms of dividing between heaven and hell, there's a number of references in the Gospels talking about the end days and how "those who know him" will be given a place with him but the others will be cast out. Those are often used as a basis for heaven and hell. For Purgatory, there's a reference in 2 Maccabbees talking about praying for the dead (why would you need to if they're already rewarded or condemned), Matthew talks essentially of a debtors prison for those who need to pay off the last of their sins, and 1 Corinthians references the refiner's fire.

My mom bought a topics tab set for our Bible's. Purgatory's covered. >.>

[Skunkle]

Thanks for that. Anyone have any idea, then, which scriptures the Conservapedia people would intend on "re-translating" to describe "hell as we now think of it"?

Description from the Conservapedia site, no. 6 on a list of 10 points they intend to make:

6- "Accept the Logic of Hell: applying logic with its full force and effect, as in not denying or downplaying the very real existence of Hell or the Devil."