Gay Marriage

[Flyndaran]

Then you probably can't trust a lot of our elected officials. With some personality types comes the propensity to cheat on spouses. That's the way it is and always has been.
Many of the stronger personalities that have been President of our country have been involved in extra-marital affairs, from Jefferson to Roosevelt to LBJ and beyond. I don't feel that their ability to perform their public duties was really that hampered.

I don't trust liars. That shouldn't be that bizarre of a concept. Lying to those you supposedly love means you would lie to everyone else on earth about anything.

[AdminAssistant]

The California Supreme Court upheld Prop 8. How fucking sad.

[Greenday]

Wow, pathetic. How is this any different than saying people can't get married because of race?

I can't find it, but which justices voted what on this case?

[Boozy]

Wow, pathetic. How is this any different than saying people can't get married because of race?

Well, to use an argument that was thrown about in another thread: They aren't saying two gay men/women can't get married. They're saying that they can't marry each other.

A gay man can still marry a woman. Just not another gay man. Ergo, they're not being denied the same rights being afforded others.

And no, I don't agree with that argument at all. I'm very disappointed with the Supreme Court's decision.

[AFPheonix]

They at least upheld the marriages that went in before the ban, and it was a profoundly narrow decision. Pretty much all they decided was that the amendment was put into place legally. They didn't really say anything about the obvious conflict between the fairness clause and prop 8.

That being said, the fact that the california supreme court was that emasculated that they didn't strike it down tells me that the state constitution is absolutely worthless. If it can't be used to do its job, namely protecting minorities from the tyranny of the majority, what's the point of having it at all? It's going to take a 3/4 majority plus the legislature to reverse prop 8 now unless SCOTUS strikes it down. SCOTUS has not been taking any gay marriage cases at all, and the rulings it has been making the last few years have been very narrow as well. We haven't seen good, sweeping rulings like Brown vs. Board of Education or other landmark cases decided for a very long time, and probably won't again until several conservative justices kick the bucket and are replaced with more liberal ones.

[MadMike]

Well, to use an argument that was thrown about in another thread: They aren't saying two gay men/women can't get married. They're saying that they can't marry each other.

A gay man can still marry a woman. Just not another gay man. Ergo, they're not being denied the same rights being afforded others.

I know you're just playing devil's advocate here, but I'd like to point out that a few decades ago, the same argument could be made about a black man and a white woman. A black man could marry, just not to a white woman.

[DesignFox]

I know you're just playing devil's advocate here, but I'd like to point out that a few decades ago, the same argument could be made about a black man and a white woman. A black man could marry, just not to a white woman.

Well, Boozy didn't agree with that logic, just mentioned that it was the logic applied to prop 8.

I can't believe it was upheld by the supreme court. But then again, I'm not interested in the goings on of other people's sexual preferences. AND I happen to think that love is love. As long as consenting adults are involved, I see no reason to deny any person's right to dedicate their life/love to whoever they choose as worthy of it.

*sigh*

[Boozy]

I know you're just playing devil's advocate here, but I'd like to point out that a few decades ago, the same argument could be made about a black man and a white woman. A black man could marry, just not to a white woman.

Exactly. Good analogy.

Which is why I disagree with anyone who says that gay marriage is not a civil rights issue.

[daleduke17]

Exactly. Good analogy.

Which is why I disagree with anyone who says that gay marriage is not a civil rights issue.

Was Proposition 8 voted in by the proper channels (ie: did the state of California let the public vote on it)? The answer is yes.

More votes were to uphold it. So, what's the big deal? Isn't this how the nation is supposed to be run? The people spoke. Does it affect me? Nope. So, I don't really care. I'm just tired of hearing about it on every newscast.

[Greenday]

Was Proposition 8 voted in by the proper channels (ie: did the state of California let the public vote on it)? The answer is yes.

More votes were to uphold it. So, what's the big deal? Isn't this how the nation is supposed to be run? The people spoke. Does it affect me? Nope. So, I don't really care. I'm just tired of hearing about it on every newscast.

We could have a vote on how many sides are on a triangle. And if 95% of the popular vote says there are 4 sides on a triangle, that still wouldn't make it right.

Neither does a, what was it, 52% majority make stripping people of their human rights. Sometimes the majority is just plain wrong. And the Justice System is supposed to be there to correct this. The only problem is, this time the CA Supreme Court messed it up and denied people equal rights.

[AdminAssistant]

Does it affect me? Nope.

So...what you're saying is that you believe in stripping away rights from American citizens based on the circumstances of their birth? And that doesn't affect you? Well, hell, let's have votes and see if we can pass measures that keep blondes from marrying brunettes....or Arkansans from marrying people from Illinois? After all, if the "people" decide it, then it must be okay. Actually, let's just go back and make interracial marriages illegal and reinstate segregation in the South - after all, when those things were passed down from the courts, the majority of people didn't want it...so we should just go back to discriminating against anybody the majority doesn't like or understand.

Quite frankly, this whole thing makes me sick. It doesn't AFFECT you? I'm straight. I can legally get married to any person of my choosing. One of my best friends is not allowed to do the same, because she would choose to marry a woman. And that sure as hell affects me. American citizens are being deprived of their rights for no reason other than a lot of Bible-thumping fundamentalist Christians don't want to deal with gay people. I saw an interview yesterday with one of the Prop 8 supporters and she said that she wanted to make sure her children understood that a family was one man, one woman, and children. So, she wanted to legalize discrimination so she would have an easier job parenting her children. Of course, she didn't explain how she would teach her kids about single parents.

What the majority wants is NOT always morally, ethically, or CONSTITUTIONALLY right. Now, let's take a quick look at our very own Declaration of Independence: All men are created equal and are endowed with their Creator certain inalienable rights: the rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Please explain to me how denying homosexuals basic civil rights gives them liberty or the pursuit of happiness.

[smileyeagle1021]

Does it affect me?

It does now. The Cali Supreme Court just confirmed that it is Constitutional to have the majority vote on minority rights and I guarantee you are in a minority in one way or another, everyone is. If it's not because of the color of your skin or your gender or your orientation, it will be for something else. It could be because of your faith (no one denomination has enough to outvote every other denomination combined... so while it may be more or less likely you'll get allies from other faiths, it still could be an issue), it could be your education level, it could be for any number of reasons. And if it's now Constitutional to discriminate on orientation, why not discriminate based on educational level, why not discriminate on faith? After all, it will be the will of the people.

So, whether or not you realize this, you have been affected because the court has just removed your protection from the majority on any issue in which you are in a minority (at least if you want to take this court ruling to it's ultimate extreme).

ETA- even if everything I've said ultimately turns out to be a moot point... you may be a straight person who has lost absolutely no rights... but you have friends, family, coworkers, and neighbors who are affected, and I would pray that you consider inequity against those you care about to be something that affects you.

[daleduke17]

How does this affect someone not in California? Proposition 8 only affects Californians. Nothing happened here when Vermont, Iowa and Massachusetts allowed it.

[Greenday]

How does this affect someone not in California? Proposition 8 only affects Californians. Nothing happened here when Vermont, Iowa and Massachusetts allowed it.

Because California is one of the biggest states, and by making a ruling, not allowing it, other states will now be less likely to do it. And even though I truly believe eventually it will be legal everywhere, it's rulings like these that push it further into the future.

[Boozy]

Was Proposition 8 voted in by the proper channels (ie: did the state of California let the public vote on it)? The answer is yes.
...Isn't this how the nation is supposed to be run? The people spoke.

Actually, the United States is not run by mob rule. The constitution makes sure of it. Your system has a series of checks and balances to ensure that when the majority rules for something that is a violation of civil rights, the Supreme Court steps in and overturns it.

Which they refused to do here. So you could definitely argue from that side of things... but just saying that "Prop 8 passed by a majority, therefore Prop 8 is infallible" is incorrect.