Illinois: Doing away with freedom of religion, one bill at a time

[Boozy]

I'd like to stay on the forum, but I should probably shy away from this topic as it seems to provoke me more than I'd care to admit.

There are some threads I usually stay away from too, for the same reasons. Its hard to remain unemotional when you're discussing something that means a great deal to you.

But please don't let this silence you on other topics! I like your posts - you always have some good points to make.

[Greenday]

I don't think students shouldn't be allowed to pray in school. If they have free time, I don't see why they can't use it to pray. In high school, lunch was half an hour, freshman through junior year you could easily fit a study hall in and that's another forty minutes. That's already over an hour of time that can be used for prayer. Senior year, most kids had two study halls. And if it got loud in study hall, you were kicked out to the vice principal's office. In middle school, we had a half an hour for lunch and a half an hour for recess. That's plenty of time to get praying done. I always got reading and/or homework done during lunch if need be. As much as I enjoy reading, during the day, I just want to go to class and get class over with. I know all of my friends feel the same way. It'd just be unfair to so many of us to extend our days when we have other things we need to get done.

[Rapscallion]

I don't know about the US, but over here anyone who considers it important to pray five times a day when following islam is in an islamic school. Based on this, my take is that people who go to non-denominational schools are there to learn. If someone at such a school wishes to pray, they can do it in their breaks, before school, or after school. I can't see why anyone at such a school should have to change their day to accomodate anyone else's beliefs. In the spirit of fairness, if all pupils don't get the five pray periods off during the day, that's a lack of equality. Such a distraction is going to affect how a lesson works as well, I would imagine.

Is a moment of silence an attempt to get religion into schools? I'm trying to see any reason why this is necessary.

Rapscallion

[Boozy]

I don't know about the US, but over here anyone who considers it important to pray five times a day when following islam is in an islamic school....In the spirit of fairness, if all pupils don't get the five pray periods off during the day, that's a lack of equality.

You're probably right - any Muslim who prays five times a day is most likely attending a madrasah. There's a Christian home schooling movement in the US taking off, especially in the South. And not just because of the prayer thing, but also because of issues like evolution and sex education.

You're also right about the spirit of fairness - public schools must be accommodating of anyone regardless of religion. Not every student can afford private religious school.

But we obviously can't acquiesce too much to religious groups - that is when we see the removal of sex ed and the teaching of creationism.

[Seshat]

I apologize to anyone I may have personally offended.
So I am sorry.

It takes maturity to recognise one's own failings and apologise for them. I respect you for this.

I'd like to stay on the forum, but I should probably shy away from this topic as it seems to provoke me more than I'd care to admit.

If you so choose.
Another alternative would be to type up a post offline, wait 24 hours, review it for personal attacks, and then cut-and-paste it into the forum. Over time, you'll develop the skills to debate even issues you feel strongly about, without needing to take the cool-off time.

[Seshat]

I don't know about the US, but over here anyone who considers it important to pray five times a day when following islam is in an islamic school.

Here in Aussieland, we have enough Islamic students attending local schools (especially near where I live) that the uniform shops for the school uniforms include headscarves in the school uniform colours.

I don't know what they do about the prayer thing - when I was growing up, we didn't have any obviously Islamic students in my schools - but clearly there's a solution which satisfies the Islamic parents, and gets the kids learning the same stuff as every other kid in our culture.

[daleduke17]

I just saw this conversation, and being from Illinois, I thought I'd chime in.

This whole Moment of Silence vs State Sponsored religion has gotten old. The General Assembly (basically State Congress) worked on this when they should have been working on more important issues like the budget that wasn't approved for almost two months (including going into overtime and affecting a whole lot of state and local agencies), or taking care of the electric price freeze issue.

Since it has gotten passed there have been numerous articles and letters to the editor in the local newspaper. Some for it, some against it. I personally think it should have been a low priority issue, not a hotly contested deal. It was another piece of legislation that Illinois put into effect before working out the details or how it is going to be enforced. It seems like a hard piece of legislation to enforce as how can one actually go in and check if the schools are actually following legislation.

Governor Blagojevich has hardly done anything with any of the pressing issues of the state so he can show off his ideas, including: moment of silence, universal healthcare and pay raises for the General Assembly and himself. He has greatly irritated the residents of Illinois (even a lot of downstate* democrats) and should be assured this is his last term, even if he does run again.

*-"downstate" consists of all of Illinois outside of Chicago and the collar counties around Chicago.

[Amethyst Hunter]

What most likely happened was that a small but very vocal minority (i.e., the ones who think Religion Solves Everything) pushed for this bill to go through - the governor did NOT approve it when it landed on his desk; it became a law through default when the GA garnered enough votes to override his (sensible) veto and it automatically then went into effect.

Last I had heard, a court did rule that it was unconstitutional, but the ruling evidently only applies to this one school district - others may still have it in effect. We'll know more as the story develops, I suppose.

Governor Blagojevich has hardly done anything with any of the pressing issues of the state so he can show off his ideas, including: moment of silence, universal healthcare and pay raises for the General Assembly and himself. He has greatly irritated the residents of Illinois (even a lot of downstate* democrats) and should be assured this is his last term, even if he does run again.

I'm from Illinois myself, and with some exceptions, I don't think Blagojevich has really been that bad. I definitely would rather have him over a Republican - I will NEVER vote for another Republican ever again after what that party has done to this state and this country (if not the world). I do think Blagojevich should spend more time trying to work out a feasible healthcare solution though, being as that's one of his ideas that I do agree with.

[daleduke17]

That's right, it was due to the GA override.

I'd just like to see another person like Edgar to get into office. From what I have read he didn't seem like he was that bad of a governor, even being a Republican. No offense if you're from Chicagoland, Amethyst, but Blagojevich needs to realize the seat of Illinois Government is in Springfield.

[Rapscallion]

I mat be geographically challenged here, but wherever the seat is, isn't it his duty to represent all of his constituents?

Rapscallion

[Amethyst Hunter]

I'd just like to see another person like Edgar to get into office. From what I have read he didn't seem like he was that bad of a governor, even being a Republican. No offense if you're from Chicagoland, Amethyst, but Blagojevich needs to realize the seat of Illinois Government is in Springfield.

I can't say as I know much about Edgar, being that I was fairly young when he was around. He may well have been 'old school' Repub, before the party got hijacked by all the nutjobs and assholes. I could probably tolerate old school Repub, but there are too few of them these days and they all seem more interested in bonding with their fellow scum than in honest representation. Until they kick those kinds out, I refuse to support them.

Granted, Dems have their own issues, but in general, they're a lot less likely to (irreparably) royally screw over the populace than the other bunch.

I'm not from Chicagoland, not even close, but as Raps said, Blago's job is to represent all the state, not just Springfield, even if the state legislative body is headquartered there. I'm not sure what part of IL you're from, but I have been downstate before (as far south as the IL-KY border, actually), and trust me - depending on the area, parts of it are downright SCARY in comparison to some of the central/northern areas.

One of the reasons I like Blago is because he helped spearhead a law which states that all IL pharmacies *must* fill all prescriptions they're presented with, or else refer the customer to someplace that will. This came about thanks to some asshole who thought it was their Moral Duty to tell a customer what physician-prescribed medication (i.e., birth control pills) she could and could not have based on that asshole's *personal beliefs*. Guess where this happened - Chicagoland area. Now, if these kinds of scumbags are infesting a *city*, how bad is it, I wonder, way downstate where the 'ol Bible Belt reigns supreme? (for the record, this kind of crap has been happening all over the *country* in recent years)

Sometimes the politicians actually do do what they're supposed to, which is look out for the little guy.

[daleduke17]

I'm from Bloomington, which is about an hour north of Springfield going towards Chicago on I55.

I do like a couple of Blagojevich's new things, but there are a lot more I don't like. I agree about the pharmacist one, definitely. I could only imagine how bad it is south of I70 (Carbondale, Marion, Cairo, etc) in the Bible Belt area.

I did like watching Rich Whitney run for Governor this past time being the Green Party person and all. He seemed like the legit best candidate. Too bad he didn't win. :-/

[Arcade Man D]

I mat be geographically challenged here, but wherever the seat is, isn't it his duty to represent all of his constituents?

Rapscallion

It's a popular expression in various US states when a state official seems to care more about one particular city than the entirety of the state. Particularly "The seat of New York's government is in Albany", or others I can't think of at half past midnight.

[powerboy]

If there's an unused classroom, or a corner of the library can be spared, the school could turn it into a non-denominational quiet room/chapel. The Islamic students could have special permission to slip out of class at their designated times, the other students could go the chapel during their breaks.

This would allow those students who need prayer or meditation to have it, with minimal impact on the other students.

It seems like a perfect solution to me. Does anyone have a problem with it?

I was going to mention this. It would be the best solution. This is what we had in my high school.

[Saydrah]

I'm late to the party with this thread, but I think that most people offering solutions are overlooking a larger problem.

If students are completely unable to find a few minutes and a quiet space each day for gathering their thoughts, prayer, meditation, or just to get AWAY from each other, it's no suprise so many kids cut class at higher grade levels!

I had the good fortune to attend an alternative school, which though it had many problems, was not the type to over-schedule, over-test, and exhaust students like so many high schools do today. Relaxation and self-expression were rights every student had. We made our own schedules with the advice and approval of teachers, choosing what subjects to take and at what times of day from a list of offerings. It was permissible to take a free period during the day for study or work on independent projects, if one placed it on one's schedule and submitted a proposal for use of the time to one's advisor (homeroom teacher, in conventional school jargon).

I don't think a student of ANY religion struggled to find quiet time for prayer at my high school, because quiet time was always available to anyone who expressed they needed it built into their schedule, whether to combat stress, pray, or what have you. Where is the harm in allowing students a little say in their schedules? Eliminate NCLB and the pressure to test constantly, implement measures to attract more creative and talented teachers and school administrators, and put a little wiggle room in students' schedules, and let them decide for themselves where in the day to place a few 10 minute breaks for whatever purpose.

The government doesn't need to administrate religious expression for students. Give them the freedom to self-advocate for flexibility in their education, and religious students who feel they must pray during the day will schedule their own times and places to do so.

I WOULD have a problem with a quiet room called a chapel being in a building built with public funds. However, I do not have a problem with not forcing schools to use every room of the building all the time, and I do not have a problem with allowing students the flexibility to use empty rooms for any purpose.

When our schools are so over-crowded and our students so over-booked that the government has to mandate a moment of silence or a chapel room simply to allow students to express themselves, we need more than a debate over those mandated moments of silence- we need fundamental change in the school system. Students are humans, and children, and forcing them into schedules so strict it's impossible to find a few quiet minutes to pray is detrimental to much more than freedom of religion.