Does Atheism count as a religious viewpoint?

[Hyena Dandy]

Now, as those who are well acquainted with me know, I'm a huge supporter of the separation of Church and State. I've signed petitions to make sure that religious personalities (Reverends, churches, etc.) aren't endorsed on the sides of state-run buses. Many of my friends agree with me on this one. But recently one of my friends has been trying to get the phrase "God Probably Doesn't Exist, So Just Enjoy Yourself" on the buses.

When I explained I was against this, she said I was going AGAINST separation of church and state. But I say that I'm going for it. I won't make the argument that Atheism counts as a religion (That's a whole different can of worms) but I will say that its at least a religious VIEWPOINT. After all, its making a statement about a religious belief. The fact that its anti-religion instead of pro-religion doesn't change that. And neither does the inclusion of the phrase "Probably" in the adds. Even "Maybe" is a viewpoint on religion.

I feel separation of Church and State means that they have to be SEPARATED. Not that the state needs to be AGAINST religion.

Now, what a private bus company does and doesn't put on their buses is up to them. I'd be perfectly fine if a private company wanted to plaster their buses with religious iconography. Same with the corporate "Merry Christmas/Happy Holidays" dilemma, I think that's up to the store to say, because that's their private decision. But when the government is being represented, I don't feel that they should be making ANY statement on religion, for or against.

[Nyoibo]

God is mentioned, God is a central figure in religion, therefore it is religious.

[Rapscallion]

Define 'religious' first. For me, it means acceptance of a supernatural state of affairs as being the truth. Atheism is the unacceptance of a supernatural state of affairs. I don't consider it religious.

Put it this way, if atheism is counted as a religion, then everyone would be counted as 'religious'.

Rapscallion

[jackfaire]

Yes it does. Religious viewpoint means, "Viewpoint on religions"

No in and of itself it is not a religion. It is a viewpoint on them however. Any opinion about religion is your view point of religion.

[Hyena Dandy]

Raps:

I won't make the argument that Atheism counts as a religion (That's a whole different can of worms) but I will say that its at least a religious VIEWPOINT

I'm not saying its a religion. I'm saying giving any opinion counts against separating church and state. I feel that the government shouldn't endorse ANYTHING, religion or anti-religion.

[RecoveringKinkoid]

Athiesm, while not a religion, is a religious or spiritual viewPOINT. It is a personal philosophy regarding a creator spirit. It comes up in religious discussions and context.

Therefore, if saying that God exists is a religious viewpoint and therefore has no place on the sides of state run busses, then your friend is mistaken in her belief that saying that He doesn't does have a place there.

Just because it's something she wants to do does not make it right. If her stance is that personal spiritual beliefs should not be displayed in public places, then displaying hers there is just plain hypocritical.

To the point of being over the top, it's hypocritical.

She can circulate anything she wants, nobody is going to touch this with a ten foot pole. You don't get to run whatever you want just because you pay. You have to find someone who will carry your advert. Nobody will touch that message, it would be a huge can of worms regardless of the bus owners' personal view. It is the sort of thing that would run off OTHER advertisers.


I would submit to you that your friend likes the idea of being contentious and provacative and has a bone to pick. She probably ought to grow up and concern herself more with her own affairs and not with what strangers believe.

[Rapscallion]

My bad - I read the title and went straight in.

So, atheism itself is a lack of belief in a supernatural being(s). However, there are people who describe themselves as atheists because they have very clear cut ideas about how the world is, just as there are religious people who have clear cut ideas. What about the average person in the street who doesn't particularly believe in anything, just goes about his or her business day to day, and doesn't even think about it? Such a person would be an atheist, but not have a religious viewpoint, since it would be something they hadn't really bothered with.

Am I making sense? I'm doing the overly much overtime thing right now.

Rapscallion

[machinest]

I think what you are describing is labeled as an apathist ,no clear thought on whether or not god exists and no real need to form one

[Hyena Dandy]

My bad - I read the title and went straight in.

So, atheism itself is a lack of belief in a supernatural being(s). However, there are people who describe themselves as atheists because they have very clear cut ideas about how the world is, just as there are religious people who have clear cut ideas. What about the average person in the street who doesn't particularly believe in anything, just goes about his or her business day to day, and doesn't even think about it? Such a person would be an atheist, but not have a religious viewpoint, since it would be something they hadn't really bothered with.

Am I making sense? I'm doing the overly much overtime thing right now.

Rapscallion

Yes, while that wasn't the point of the post. The point was does the statement "God probably doesn't exist, so just relax" on a bus count against separation of church and state. I was saying yes, because it endorses a viewpoint.

[Rapscallion]

I can see where you're coming from. State-run busses shouldn't really have any advertisement on at all, save for other state services. I'm thinking things like adult literacy courses etc. (Yes, I've seen this...)

The reason is that relying on advertising from the commercial sector means that even if the intentions are honourable, any approval of a scheme by the people who advertise, or award of a contract to such, is going to be regarded as suspicious. It also means that the advertising organisation is going to hold some sway over supposedly neutral parties.

Does the advertising you mention count as a religious viewpoint? In that actual format, I'd say 'yes'. I'd say that the state shouldn't allow it (even though I agree with it), but only on the same grounds I'd say they shouldn't allow any advertising on state-run busses.

Rapscallion

[Hyena Dandy]

I can see where you're coming from. State-run busses shouldn't really have any advertisement on at all, save for other state services. I'm thinking things like adult literacy courses etc. (Yes, I've seen this...)

The reason is that relying on advertising from the commercial sector means that even if the intentions are honourable, any approval of a scheme by the people who advertise, or award of a contract to such, is going to be regarded as suspicious. It also means that the advertising organisation is going to hold some sway over supposedly neutral parties.

Does the advertising you mention count as a religious viewpoint? In that actual format, I'd say 'yes'. I'd say that the state shouldn't allow it (even though I agree with it), but only on the same grounds I'd say they shouldn't allow any advertising on state-run busses.

Rapscallion

I'd agree with you there. There's no way that the MBTA will stop advertising on its buses, though, so I at least want to keep the religious statements off of them.

[Slytovhand]

But... if they allow one form of private advertising, are they then in a position to dictate what does and doesn't go on?

[Rapscallion]

But... if they allow one form of private advertising, are they then in a position to dictate what does and doesn't go on?

For me, that's the whole point of the thread. I suppose if they don't put on atheism propoganda, they should make sure that religious propoganda is banned as well, as well as accepting adverts from politicians.

Rapscallion

[Hyena Dandy]

For me, that's the whole point of the thread. I suppose if they don't put on atheism propoganda, they should make sure that religious propoganda is banned as well, as well as accepting adverts from politicians.

Rapscallion

Exactly. A large part of what I was thinking in this thread is that if you're going to expend a lot of effort making sure they don't put religious propaganda on the buses, you should keep atheist propaganda off as well.

[Ladeeda]

My bad - I read the title and went straight in.

So, atheism itself is a lack of belief in a supernatural being(s). However, there are people who describe themselves as atheists because they have very clear cut ideas about how the world is, just as there are religious people who have clear cut ideas. What about the average person in the street who doesn't particularly believe in anything, just goes about his or her business day to day, and doesn't even think about it? Such a person would be an atheist, but not have a religious viewpoint, since it would be something they hadn't really bothered with.

Am I making sense? I'm doing the overly much overtime thing right now.

Rapscallion

I think that's Agnostic, actually. Someone who doesn't believe or not believe in a Higher Power.