Cult Militia trying to start a war...

[infinitemonkies]

Maybe this deserves it's own thread:

How could one legally and non-violently secede from America?
Let's say, for the sake on convenience, that the area is already on the border, with ocean access. One of the Florida keys for instance. Me & everyone else on this bit of land want to form our own country, and write our own constitution. How could it be done without ending in a 4 day stand-off with the FBI & ATF and a whole lotta body bags? What would be different in the scenario if it were instead a chunk of land in the middle of Tennesee?

[Andrew B]

Surprisingly enough, there are micronations within the US Borders. Molassia for example.

[smileyeagle1021]

Surprisingly enough, there are micronations within the US Borders. Molassia for example.

theoretically all tribal reservations and colonies are micronations. When I lived in Reno I quite frequently left the United States... in fact every commuter on the 395 freeway going between Mill and 80 technically left the United States (the freeway crosses a colony).

[Hyena Dandy]

According to the author of Matthew, Jesus did say (and I paraphrase), "I come not to bring peace, but a sword." But that just goes to show that you can find a bible verse to support almost any agenda.

Especially if you want to take it out of context. It seems pretty clear from that passage that Jesus isn't saying "I'm all about war" but rather "Yeah, shit's gonna go down. I'm awesome, but I can't make peace happen."

And this story just goes to show that extremists will latch on to any philosophy or religion that they think supports their cause. In this sense, Christianity is no better than Islam.

What's so bad about Islam anyway?

[Nyoibo]

Islam is still going through growing pains that Christianity went through something like 1000 years ago.

[Hyena Dandy]

I hate the growing pains argument. It takes responsibility for people's actions away from them, and places it on the religion. And not even the teachings of the religion, rather, that there is a religion at all, essentially saying that all religions will inevitably turn violent after a certain amount of time. But religions do not exist seperate from their practitioners. Catholicism is not separate from Catholics. Presbyterianism would not exist, were it not for the Presbyterians. Even the most regimented religion, like Scientology, is only present because there are Scientologists. And any action taken by the followers of a religion is taken by its followers, not the religion itself. Christianity has had bad times. Times when people were persecuted, violently even, by the Catholic church, or another church. But the responsibility for that lies solely on the persecutors, not on the religion.

But I see the appeal of the growing pains theory. It takes that blame away from the people who commit the crimes in their religion's name, and places it on the religion. In fact, it basically says that, because there is a religion, it will experience 'growing pains'. The theory lends itself to the argument that the best way to reduce violence is to stop religion from existing altogether, and then we will all be peaceful, free from the spectre of religion, which compels otherwise peaceful people to commit violence. Religion is the villain here, not the people who do the crimes.

Besides. Islam is the second largest religion in the world. Where exactly is it supposed to grow TO?

[BigGiant]

Agree on the 'Growing Pains' argument.

It is a cop out, and reeks more of trying to express superiority than anything else.

Like:

"Ya know, that silly little toddler religion Islam and their terrorists! Ah well, kids will be kids! Remember when Christianity was that young, Martha? And we had those sillly crusades? They'll grow out of it eventually!"

[KabeRinnaul]

The problem with Islam seems to be that many of the regions it has a strong presence are also extremely unstable and undeveloped, allowing any political opportunist to use it as an ideological weapon.

As for those Bible quotes?

10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
10:36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

22:36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.
22:37 For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.

Helpful reference is helpful.

[Hobbs]

The problem with Islam seems to be that many of the regions it has a strong presence are also extremely unstable and undeveloped, allowing any political opportunist to use it as an ideological weapon.

As for those Bible quotes?




Helpful reference is helpful.

Yeah, because the "Skeptics Annotated Bible" is going to be fair and balanced. Nice to see that it left out the passages about "Love thy enemy" and "turn the other cheek."

Athiesm is just as bad as religion in that vein of thought.

[ExiledV20]

Maybe this deserves it's own thread:

How could one legally and non-violently secede from America?
Let's say, for the sake on convenience, that the area is already on the border, with ocean access. One of the Florida keys for instance. Me & everyone else on this bit of land want to form our own country, and write our own constitution. How could it be done without ending in a 4 day stand-off with the FBI & ATF and a whole lotta body bags? What would be different in the scenario if it were instead a chunk of land in the middle of Tennesee?

Short answer: You can't. Period.

Long answer: The question of secession was resolved in Texas vs. White, in which the Supreme Court stated that the only viable method of secession in the USA was to either a) leave with the consent of ALL states AND the federal government or b) have a successful revolution and overthrow the federal and state governments in their entirety. This decision was predicated on the clause in the U. S. Const. of "to form a MORE PERFECT union"; if you secede, it's not perfect, therefore it's not allowed.

[Ipecac Drano]

Yeah, because the "Skeptics Annotated Bible" is going to be fair and balanced. Nice to see that it left out the passages about "Love thy enemy"

Skip down to Matthew 5:44

and "turn the other cheek."

and Matthew 5:38


The whole Bible is on that website. There is even a link called "Good Stuff" which takes you to passages that tell people to do good things.

Athiesm is just as bad as religion in that vein of thought.

Too bad that vein of thought actually came from an anti-atheist.

[KabeRinnaul]

Yeah, because the "Skeptics Annotated Bible" is going to be fair and balanced. Nice to see that it left out the passages about "Love thy enemy" and "turn the other cheek."

Athiesm is just as bad as religion in that vein of thought.

Ipecac Drano already said it, but to add to the point, you might notice how often I argue in defense of religion on here.

I use the SAB because it has the full text of the King James bible, Book of Mormon, and Koran. Furthermore, they're searchable, with highlights on oft-debated topics and passages. It also includes Christian responses to much of the atheist commentary in the KJV section.

Too bad that vein of thought actually came from an anti-atheist.

If you're referring to me, I've not settled on any particular religious standpoint. I'm somewhere between "agnostic" and "Catholic who thinks too much".

[Ipecac Drano]

If you're referring to me, I've not settled on any particular religious standpoint. I'm somewhere between "agnostic" and "Catholic who thinks too much".

No, that was for Hobbs.

[Mytical]

Hmm may need the anti-rotten fruit shield up for this..but religion ISN'T the problem. Most recognized religions have both good and bad in them..it's the people that decide to go the higher road or the lower road.

Religions (even organized which I am not a fan of) have done a lot more good then bad..but only the bad get attention. IE the vocal minority make it hard on the silent majority.

For instance. You go to a restaurant. Three children are screaming, yelling, carrying on. 99% of people would complain about the three ..not saying anything about the 20 that are quietly eating dinner (other children that is). Like anything else in this world..the bad gets more press then the good.

People use anything to excuse their own bad behavior. Religion, Politics, Society, etc. "It's not MY fault, it's <X's> fault!!!"

[Ipecac Drano]

So, Mytical, what is the root of religious zeal? If the Bible, Qu'ran, etc., orders its followers to kill others and they kill for their god (in earnest, not as an excuse), where would religion fit it to that?