Cult Militia trying to start a war...

[Mytical]

So, Mytical, what is the root of religious zeal? If the Bible, Qu'ran, etc., orders its followers to kill others and they kill for their god (in earnest, not as an excuse), where would religion fit it to that?

So you know these books inside and out? Every facet of them? Not just select quotes that are out of context, but have actually taken the time to study them?

Because, I don't know them inside and out, though I have studied them..and that is not what I get from them. ((Note : I do know a lot more about the bible then the Qu'Ran, but everything? No.)) There are just as many, if not more, verses that tell you to : Turn the Other cheek, Judge not least you be judged, Love your neighbor as you would yourself.

So let me explain. In the past, have people have taken the selected quotes, out of context, and used them to further their own agenda? Yes. They preyed on peoples fear, ignorance, and worry. Think people in religion are the only ones that do that? Heck governments do that today.

Blame the 'illegal aliens' of the day, the 'infidels' (in the case of the religious fanatics), the gays, the jimbobfurlybobs. Whatever is CONVENIENT. Charismatic people can get people to follow and believe what they say, especially those who were never taught better.

Lets take the 'Crusade' one of the biggest tragedies attributed to Christianity. At the time the average person could not read or write. So when their leaders said "This is what the bible says." they believed it. Using fear, charisma, and POLITICAL positions of power, these people furthered their own political agenda. Not only distracting the populace from whatever real problems their were, but filling their pockets with ill gotten loot to boot.

Currently Islam is going through the same thing. Charismatic people are furthering their own political agenda, at the expense of people raised to follow them without question.

[Ipecac Drano]

So you know these books inside and out? Every facet of them? Not just select quotes that are out of context, but have actually taken the time to study them?

I've read them in Greek, Latin, and Hebrew.

Because, I don't know them inside and out, though I have studied them..and that is not what I get from them. ((Note : I do know a lot more about the bible then the Qu'Ran, but everything? No.)) There are just as many, if not more, verses that tell you to : Turn the Other cheek, Judge not least you be judged, Love your neighbor as you would yourself.

You can learn alot about the Bible just by reading Deuteronomy; that book that isn't read from in church and in the temple.

So let me explain. In the past, have people have taken the selected quotes, out of context, and used them to further their own agenda? Yes. They preyed on peoples fear, ignorance, and worry. Think people in religion are the only ones that do that? Heck governments do that today.

I'm aware of all that.

Blame the 'illegal aliens' of the day, the 'infidels' (in the case of the religious fanatics), the gays, the jimbobfurlybobs. Whatever is CONVENIENT. Charismatic people can get people to follow and believe what they say, especially those who were never taught better.

Even if the Bible tells them so?

Lets take the 'Crusade' one of the biggest tragedies attributed to Christianity. At the time the average person could not read or write. So when their leaders said "This is what the bible says." they believed it. Using fear, charisma, and POLITICAL positions of power, these people furthered their own political agenda. Not only distracting the populace from whatever real problems their were, but filling their pockets with ill gotten loot to boot.

Did the leaders get their fuel from God's Book? Making shit up is one thing; communicating something from the Bible is another.

Currently Islam is going through the same thing. Charismatic people are furthering their own political agenda, at the expense of people raised to follow them without question.

I take all that as, "Yes, Ipecac, they're batshit crazy because they want to please their god."

[Boozy]

I've read them in Greek, Latin, and Hebrew.

But not in English?

Too plebian for your tastes?

[Ipecac Drano]

But not in English?

Too plebian for your tastes?

Oh, pish posh, my fair lady!

[Andara Bledin]

Did the leaders get their fuel from God's Book? Making shit up is one thing; communicating something from the Bible is another.

As explained in the rest of the post you're responding to, they cherry-pick the bits they like, quote them out of context and use them to rouse the rabble. A lot like what you do, actually.

^-.-^

[Ipecac Drano]

As explained in the rest of the post you're responding to, they cherry-pick the bits they like, quote them out of context and use them to rouse the rabble. A lot like what you do, actually.

In answer to your charge against me, the so-called cherry-picking doesn't apply here for one major reason: when there is a passage that is in the Bible telling people to go out and kill for their god and the passage is not an indirect quote or there is nothing before or after it saying something to the effect of, "He was just kidding"; it wasn't taken out of context.

Ecce:

13 that scoundrels among you are leading their fellow citizens astray by saying, ‘Let us go worship other gods’—gods you have not known before. 14 In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find that the report is true and such a detestable act has been committed among you, 15 you must attack that town and completely destroy[a] all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. 16 Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the open square and burn it. Burn the entire town as a burnt offering to the Lord your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. 17 Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the Lord will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a large nation, just as he swore to your ancestors.

18 “The Lord your God will be merciful only if you listen to his voice and keep all his commands that I am giving you today, doing what pleases him.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...19&version=NLT

There is a handy footnote that gives some enhancement of "you must attack that town and completely destroy":

a.Deuteronomy 13:15 The Hebrew term used here refers to the complete consecration of things or people to the Lord, either by destroying them or by giving them as an offering; similarly in 13:17.

Say what you want, but it's a pretty clear cut way of saying "Believe in my god or I shall destroy you and sacrifice you to him." Yes, I found that little tidbit and yes, I singled it out. Spank me. But it's in the Bible. If wasn't meant to be there, then it should have been removed along with the other things that King James, et al., didn't like. I'm not saying that the whole Bible is like that or supposed to be about killing in the name of God; but it is part of the Bible nevertheless.

As been mentioned before, the Bible really isn't as warm and fuzzy as some would like to believe.

[Mytical]

Mathew 10 14-16...

14And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet. 15Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

16Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves

Yep says to hate and kill..oh wait..it doesn't. Odd.

I am not a Christian, at all. People will pick and chose to push their own agenda. Sure it says that the people who do not listen will reap what they sow, but it says in plain english "Be as harmless as doves"

[Ipecac Drano]

Mathew 10 14-16...



Yep says to hate and kill..oh wait..it doesn't. Odd.

No, but in the New Testament, God does most of the killing of non-believers.

I am not a Christian, at all. People will pick and chose to push their own agenda. Sure it says that the people who do not listen will reap what they sow, but it says in plain english "Be as harmless as doves"

Uh, I already said that to do all those bad things is NOT THE ONLY THING the Bible says: "I'm not saying that the whole Bible is like that or supposed to be about killing in the name of God".

But, you have backed my reason for disliking religion: people pick and choose what they read in God's Word. It's kinda sad when God tells you to kill non-believers in one passage and then says be nice in another in the same volume.

[Mytical]

So dislike everything, because people will pick and choose period. Politics, race, sex, sexual orientation. A million and one excuses.

[Ipecac Drano]

So dislike everything, because people will pick and choose period. Politics, race, sex, sexual orientation. A million and one excuses.

There's a big difference between several people coming from different politics, racial culture, gender and sexual orientations and people picking and choosing from one holy book that's given to them by their god and claiming to believe and obey that god.

[Mytical]

How? The results are the same. If you hurt somebody because they are black, or because they don't worship a certain deity, how is it any different? At all?

It is still YOUR choice. Are bad things explained or examples given in religion. Yes. I even have a reasonable reason why there is a difference, but can I prove my theory? No. Religion does a lot more good then people like to give it credit. Like all things however, the vocal minority (that does bad), get more press then the silent majority who do things like feed the hungry, tend the sick, etc.

I guess I should explain my theory as to why in one section there is "The wrath of the almighty", and in another section the "Be as gentle as doves."

God is LIKE an alien intelligence. He could understand us, and us him as well as we can understand ants. Having just (basically) gotten past a huge war with some of his most trusted allies..he was a bit .. miffed. Didn't want it to happen again. He was (somewhat understandably) a bit angry. Thus the "Wrath of god" bit.

Time passed, he sort of mellowed out..and then..had a SON (if anything can teach you patience..it is having a child). He learned a little more about humans (and could understand us better) through the son..so along came the "Be as gentle as doves." To protect the ones he cared for, he might still get down and dirty, but he mellowed a lot.

As to why they exist in the same sections. They are explaining the difference. How it was, and how it is.

Think of it like this. If somebody came to your house (it would be 'HIS' house..the whole universe) and started harming YOUR children, what would YOU do? So he wanted to teach his children a better way, to let him take care of things. Sounds like a great dad actually.

Keep in mind..again..I am not a Christians. I don't speak for Christians, but it makes a bit more sense in that context.

Not to mention at the time during the more harsher wording/etc the world they were in was a very harsh unforgiving place. It was needed to survive (the harshness). Once that was (for the most part) over, the big guy relaxed a bit.

[Ipecac Drano]

How? The results are the same. If you hurt somebody because they are black, or because they don't worship a certain deity, how is it any different? At all?

If you can't tell the difference, ask a priest.

It is still YOUR choice. Are bad things explained or examples given in religion. Yes. I even have a reasonable reason why there is a difference, but can I prove my theory? No. Religion does a lot more good then people like to give it credit. Like all things however, the vocal minority (that does bad), get more press then the silent majority who do things like feed the hungry, tend the sick, etc.

I guess I should explain my theory as to why in one section there is "The wrath of the almighty", and in another section the "Be as gentle as doves."

God is LIKE an alien intelligence. He could understand us, and us him as well as we can understand ants. Having just (basically) gotten past a huge war with some of his most trusted allies..he was a bit .. miffed. Didn't want it to happen again. He was (somewhat understandably) a bit angry. Thus the "Wrath of god" bit.

That has nothing to do with ignoring something that one's god tells them to do.

Time passed, he sort of mellowed out..and then..had a SON (if anything can teach you patience..it is having a child). He learned a little more about humans (and could understand us better) through the son..so along came the "Be as gentle as doves." To protect the ones he cared for, he might still get down and dirty, but he mellowed a lot.

Paraphrasing Lewis Black will get you nowhere.

As to why they exist in the same sections. They are explaining the difference. How it was, and how it is.

Too bad they left out the part that says, "Here's the difference."

Think of it like this. If somebody came to your house (it would be 'HIS' house..the whole universe) and started harming YOUR children, what would YOU do? So he wanted to teach his children a better way, to let him take care of things. Sounds like a great dad actually.

By telling me to stone the perps?

Keep in mind..again..I am not a Christians. I don't speak for Christians, but it makes a bit more sense in that context.

I used to be a Xtian and even entered a seminary. I'd suggest you do the same before preaching the Bible to me.

Not to mention at the time during the more harsher wording/etc the world they were in was a very harsh unforgiving place. It was needed to survive (the harshness). Once that was (for the most part) over, the big guy relaxed a bit.

Choice of words isn't the issue; it's what's behind them.

[Mytical]

God is not telling them to kill, etc. It is somebody picking and choosing. Humans, not God.

I was a Christian at one time, and even headed toward priesthood. So? Want to clarify here. I (Mytical) was also once a Christian, and once was going to become a priest. I fail to see how that affects anything whatsoever however.

You have every right to your interpretation of things. I am not here to change your mind. My side is told, make of it what you will. Peace.

[Ipecac Drano]

God is not telling them to kill, etc. It is somebody picking and choosing. Humans, not God.

That's right: the Bible was written by men, not a supreme being.

You have every right to your interpretation of things. I am not here to change your mind. My side is told, make of it what you will. Peace.

I'm sorry, but "Go out and kill!" can only mean one thing.

[Hyena Dandy]

That's right: the Bible was written by men, not a supreme being.

I don't believe that anyone has claimed otherwise.