Is the Ten Commandments a historical document?

[Hyena Dandy]

Some people find calling America "Amerika" to be a personal affront.

[the_std]

Some people find calling America "Amerika" to be a personal affront.

I don't understand this. Why? Is Kanada equally as offensive? Not at all. Kosta Rica? Kambodia? I don't think one letter makes a difference at all. I do understand people getting upset about people insulting their country (it is, in my mind, a very stupid reaction, but I understand it) yet I don't understand why Amerika is an insult.

[Andara Bledin]

"Amerika" as an insulting way to refer to America was first put into practice to infer that the country was run by a bunch of Nazis. Thanks, Gk, you Godwinned the thread, however unintentionally.

Anyway, purposefully misspelling a name, whatever name, is an insult. What that insult is, is up for interpretation, but you can't do it and then backpedal and claim nothing was meant.

To me, it just shows a lack of effort or creativity.

^-.-^

[Gravekeeper]

"Amerika" as an insulting way to refer to America was first put into practice to infer that the country was run by a bunch of Nazis. Thanks, Gk, you Godwinned the thread, however unintentionally.

I had intended to insult the concept of "Real America" as it exposed by the more ignorant subset of your country, however spelling it "Amurika" to imply the uneducated accent and rampant stupidity involved. But changing the e and c seemed going one letter too far. So I apologize for, er, picking the c over the e I guess.

Anyway, purposefully misspelling a name, whatever name, is an insult. What that insult is, is up for interpretation, but you can't do it and then backpedal and claim nothing was meant.

See above for where the insult was directed. Also, I have made no attempt to backpedal. Nor will I. As I see nothing wrong aside from the inadvertant reference.

To me, it just shows a lack of effort or creativity.

Seeing as no one apparently got the joke, I beg to differ. -.-

[Andara Bledin]

My response was aimed primarily at the_std as regards why people would find it offensive, as opposed to any response to your own comment.

In this case, you were too subtle... damn the lack of inflection inherent in plain text. Even a trademark symbol couldn't save it.

^-.-^

[Gravekeeper]

In this case, you were too subtle... damn the lack of inflection inherent in plain text. Even a trademark symbol couldn't save it.

^-.-^

Yes, but typing is, as I've discovered, vastly easier than recording >.>

[Kheldarson]

The Library of Congress has a mural of famous men throughout history, including Moses and Abraham. Don't know about Supreme Court...

And a larger display...as a history teacher, I'd say show Hammurabi's Code, Roman law, 10 Commandments, Justinian Code, Magna Carta, Shariah....etc. Examples of codified law throughout history.

So to answer OP, yes, it's a historical document. BUT it's also a religious document so needs to be displayed in a way to delineate it away from the religious context.

[rdp78]

So to answer OP, yes, it's a historical document. BUT it's also a religious document so needs to be displayed in a way to delineate it away from the religious context.

I figured you would have to add some more similar documents in order for it to make it a historical document. Oh well, the debate continues on in that county and just tonight they had another school board meeting about it. Here is the link to it.

Also last Monday (3-7-11) many students from Giles High School walked out of school and demanded the commandments be put back on the wall. Anyway the number of students is a bit fuzzy because this article by a local news station (as well as some non-local) says it was about 200 students while in the comments some people say it was less than 100. Speaking of the comments it seems this a very heated debate in my area and a lot of people wanted their voice heard on it (there is 7 pages of comments as of posting).

[Kheldarson]

The amount of debate doesn't surprise me. I saw similar when my history teacher at the time (when I lived in Roanoke) threw out that religion was just a social construct meant to control people. Only time that entire year that the whole class was up in arms.

[Hyena Dandy]

That's always bothered me when people say that. I can understand an amount of cynicism, but I don't see anyone who says that giving any proof, other than claiming it is. It feels a lot like people have decided they don't like something, and now are looking for REASONS not to like it.

[Kheldarson]

The teacher was just throwing it out to get a reaction. I know this for a fact because I went to church with him.

He got his reaction too. Got a similar one when he challenged the idea of "all you have to do is accept Christ as your savior to go to heaven".

[Daskinor]

Il be the odd ball.


The Ten Commandments are not a historical document, they are purely a reference inside a religious text. Mainly because who do you attribute the creator of the commandments to be, God? In this case by including it in a mural of important legal documents is saying the Christan god is the source of all this that came after. Diminishing the important work of societies that came before and after.

Then you have the argument of what set of the 10 commandments to include because you know moses had to go back up the mountain. And god being an ass gave him a deferent set. God is still an as cause he did the same thing to the mormans.

Even then their actual use as laws tends to be sketchy at best. Since these are rules for being in the good graces of god. Its not a historical document, it is an interpretation of an event/item out of a religious document.

[RANT]

This whole argument is nothing more then people looking for a loophole for getting THEIR religion inserted into government. People are trying this with Intelligent design and justifying treating gays as second class citizens. Why do we need this thing presented as the basis as our law when it is clearly NOT!

#1 You shall have no other gods before me

Free Exercise Clause of the First Amendment

#2 You shall not make for yourself an idol

Freedom of speech

#3 Do not take the name of the Lord in vain

Freedom of speech

#4 Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy

Well lets see, depending on your flavor of religion. Your not allowed to do anything or have someone do something for you. Or, just simply you need to go to church. Since at the minimum I am not legally required to go to church.

#5 Honor your father and mother

Once again I like to see a law where I am required to give a damn about my parents.

#6 You shall not kill

Hmm, well your not allowed to kill anyone, But the state is. Or no one is allowed to kill at all. Or they mean you shall not commit murder, when the state kills someone that is not murder. But since civilizations with similar governments to ours came up with laws saying you cant kill people before this document was created. It cant claim to be the moral source for them.

#7 You shall not commit adultery

I know the government loves to regulate vaginas. But I am very sure that I cant go to jail for screwing someones wife. Maybe not true 100 years ago. But now I am fairly certain I can brag about it on TV if I want.

#8 You shall not steal

See #6. But also keep in mind the state can take crap away from you if it wants. Like in #6! Does this mean that the state is above god's laws!

#9 You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor

Oh finally one that makes sense. Perjury is bad! But see #6 about how other peoples before this was made came up with the same damn rule.

#10 You shall not covet your neighbor's wife, and anything that belongs to your neighbor

Yay this either means the government gets to outlaw thought (see freedom of speech) or covet really means 'take' so the rule is redundant. It also implies that the wife is property.

So in conclusion the Ten Commandments undermine the basis of our countries constitution seven times out of ten. Contains plagiarized parts and reduces a womans place to property.

Why in the living fuck do we want to include it on anything.
[/RANT]

[Hyena Dandy]

That's a very good post explaining why the 10 Commandments should not be put on a courthouse lawn. Not why it should not be considered a historical document.

Two reasons 'in the living fuck' to include it in a list of documents

1) It has provided a framework for the laws of other countries in the past. It would make sense to include it in a list of such. We can argue on whether or not it SHOULD have, but its pretty much indisputable that it HAS.

2) It provides a framework for a world religion, and it would make sense to include it in a display of other religious documents.

[Daskinor]

It has provided a framework for the laws of other countries in the past. It would make sense to include it in a list of such. We can argue on whether or not it SHOULD have, but its pretty much indisputable that it HAS.

This statement is actually quite tricky because it may not be true.

When we deal with the Ten Commandments we are dealing with the books of Exodus and Leviticus. Early historical dating of Exodus puts its authorship between 1000 bce and 500bce. However, using modern dating techniques puts the authorship for both books in the 600-500bce range. This conforms with the Persian period of ancient Israel and Judah.

This is important because, these Jewish States would of existed for some time before the current form of the commandments existed. Second its called the Persian Period because technically the Persian's where in charge. Before that it was the Babylonian period. Now this is where it gets interesting.

Because it would of had one of these in every major population center.



That my friends is the The Code of Hammurabi The earliest known set of laws 1750bce. Go ahead give it a read. Many of the stories and ideology in the old testament are stolen from Babylonian texts, best example is the story of the flood. It is highly unlikely that the ten commandments had any role in shaping the laws in ancient Israel and Judah. But more likely was taken from the code and Babylonian proverbs. You know things that people writing the old testament would of heard most of their lives. Only during the short Hellenistic period would we see a more strict Bible focused government, and the only candidate for a This lasted between oh 163bce to 6ce with the romans taking over about 60bce.

In the end the kingdoms where eventually conquered by the romans and their more advanced legal system took over. Now roman law is based more or less on Greek law. That system came into practice in the 620s bce. One of the more awesome things about the Greek and Roman legal system is that the wrote everything down and we have many remaining records. This legal system created outside of direct Babylonian, Persian and Egyptian influence.

The rise of Christianity would put the breaks on any usage of the Ten Commandments as a basis for law. mainly because early Christians believed that Jesus declared many parts of the Old testament including the ten commandments as invalid.

The fall of Rome but the breaks on even further as kingdoms formed to rebuild through the dark ages this created. There is little evidence of the Commandments being used as basis for any kind of justice or even artistic depictions of them are quite rare. Of the few depictions found many of them are debated to be 17th century forgeries.

Roman law inspired Anglo-Saxon law. We get allot of blending, then re-blending by the Normans. As Europe played centuries long game of taking over your neighbor's kingdom introducing new laws, injecting roman law. Do this long enough every kingdom does things quite similarly. The power of the church is either strong or weak depending when and where you are standing. Mainly its power came from the services it provided. Creating laws was not one of them, but then again Jesus still did not like the ten commandments. But the Magna Carta in 1215 was the big deal and it formed everything that came after. The British Legal system was born, and 400 or so years later the British Empire brings it to the world.

Between 1200 and 1600 we get allot of issues between the people and the church. But in 1611 something happened, the English translated the bible. Bringing the word of god to all men. They tend to do funny things with this information like come up with their own ideas about God.

The American colonies even the Puritans who loved the old testament did NOT basis any of their laws on the Commandments. Then again they where not very fond of laws, they even banned lawyers. The founding fathers did not belong to any of the ultra religious segments of the country and did not put any stock in them.

So why do they a big deal now. Mainly because of the 1950s. The Fraternal Order of the Eagles donated thousands of them to places all over the country. In 1953 the Supreme Court building was constructed and the non-text commandments where included in a mural. Mainly because the work of the Order of the Eagles.

In fact here is a quote from one of my sources

The vast majority of Ten Commandments monuments in America are the ones dedicated by the Fraternal Order of the Eagles. In total the FOE produced about 40,000 large and small framed prints of the Ten Commandments, which they distributed to both public and private institutions starting in 1951.

In 1955 Cecil B. DeMille was filming the movie The Ten Commandments and he wrote to the FOE to commend them on their work in distributing copies of the Ten Commandments. He suggested that they make larger monuments that could be placed at court houses and public parks, etc.

The FOE liked the idea and they worked with DeMille to promote his movie by unveiling monuments across the country just prior to its opening, with actors from the movie present at the unveilings. All in all 145 monuments were dedicated around the country before and after the release of the movie. The monument at the Texas State Capitol, recently a center of controversy, was dedicated by the FOE in 1961.

There are a handful of Ten Commandments displays on public buildings that date back prior to 1935 in America, they are typically on either county or city property and are just small documents or plaques, typically in obscure places.

From the FOE's work came this idea that they Commandments where really important to the country. That because they where important to this country that they had to be else where. So notion of the commandments having strong influence on historical governments came to be. When in fact even more widely stated instances where it may be true, are just exaggeration or misconceptions. Most are simply where 6-9 are important, and are falsely contributed to the Torah.

[Hyena Dandy]

Daskinor, I'm afraid I'm not entirely sure what your point is, that post was all over the place. Could you provide a bit of a summary for me? Like, boil down what your points are, exactly? What you're trying to accomplish with all this because... I'm really having difficulty following you.