Students and religious expression.

[Glados]

I have a young family member who was reprimanded at his public school and threatened with disciplinary action for saying "merry Christmas" to another student. The school had instituted a policy this past holiday season that forbids students to use any phrase other than happy holidays. This policy came about after a non-Christian student was offended when another student wished him/her a merry Christmas and the parents complained. Violating this policy can lead to suspension. This is a school for grades 6-8.

I am wondering what everyone thinks about such a policy. In my opinion, this violates the students right to free speech as the student in question was not doing this to harass, just to be polite. It also seems to violate the students right to freedom of religion.

A few notes: This happened after the end of classes in the hallway on the last day before break, so it was not a disruption of class issue. It was also done out of habit and being polite, not intended to offend. The child who was wished merry Christmas was not the same one who had been offended. It was directed at another child who celebrates Christmas.

[Evandril]

It's idiocy taken far beyond common sense, IMO. I can see, barely, getting upset about public displays (Though I do not *agree*, just barely understand), but for using the common name of a holiday to wish someone well? I'm sorry, no! What's next, getting upset because someone says 'God bless you' when you sneeze?

[BlaqueKatt]

I am wondering what everyone thinks about such a policy. In my opinion, this violates the students right to free speech as the student in question was not doing this to harass, just to be polite. It also seems to violate the students right to freedom of religion.

The supreme court has ruled that schools DO have the right to limit disruptive and offensive speech on campus. Since someone was offended, it is now subject to being limited. Also freedom of religion includes freedom from having religion FORCED upon you. Also if they allowed "merry christmas" they would have to allow every other holiday or they would be breaking the establishment clause, and there would be one parent that would get in a huff because a student or teacher wished little timmy a blessed yule, or happy ramadan, and "OMG we're christians dammit!"

The child who was wished merry Christmas was not the same one who had been offended. It was directed at another child who celebrates Christmas.

In school it was well known I was an Atheist, I(and my Jewish friend*) was routinely harassed by students wishing each other a "merry Christmas" in a very snide manner in front of me, and in front of our sole practicing Jewish kid. When confronted about it it was always claimed that "oh they weren't trying to offend anyone". Most company harassment policies cover something similar, in that the offensive statement does not have to be directed towards you in order for you to be offended and report it.

*we were the only non-christians in the entire school, we were easy targets, so we stayed together most of the time.

[Andara Bledin]

Now this is just going way too far.

It depresses me how many different stories there are about schools banning students from expressing their own personal holiday greetings to other students outside of formal school events.

They claim it's in the name of religious freedom, but there's nothing free about it.

Also freedom of religion includes freedom from having religion FORCED upon you. Also if they allowed "merry christmas" they would have to allow every other holiday or they would be breaking the establishment clause, and there would be one parent that would get in a huff because a student or teacher wished little timmy a blessed yule, or happy ramadan, and "OMG we're christians dammit!"

First, wishing someone a "merry Christmas" is nothing like someone forcing their religion upon you. Even many Christians agree that Christmas has become as much a secular holiday as it is religious.

Besides, while I can agree, to some extent, on a ban of teachers using religion-based greetings at school, we're talking about the students themselves.

In school it was well known I was an Atheist, I(and my Jewish friend*) was routinely harassed by students wishing each other a "merry Christmas" in a very snide manner in front of me, and in front of our sole practicing Jewish kid. When confronted about it it was always claimed that "oh they weren't trying to offend anyone".

Oh, hey, that sounds almost exactly what one of this very board's atheists did to me in one of my threads a while back. That was about the response I got when I reported it, too.

Regardless, unless there is a pattern (which there obviously was in your case), an outright ban of anyone expressing their own religion in a non-combative way is counter-productive and far closer to their having atheism "forced upon them" than any actual redressing of religious inequality.

^-.-^

[patiokitty]

I have been out of the broom closet for quite a number of years and to this day I still wish people a Merry Christmas. I still refer to my semester break at the end of December as the Christmas holidays. I don't give a rat's arse about being politically correct and going around telling people to wish me Happy Holidays or some such crap. I know what holiday I'm celebrating and that is what is important to me, and I don't get uppity and demand that people wish me a Happy Yule or Merry Winter's Solstice. It's the spirit of the thing for me - each saying covers roughly the same group of days and carry the same spirit. I only get offended with people are being beligerent assholes about it all.

I sing Christmas carols, I attend church weddings, I wish people Merry Christmas/Happy Easter, and I don't think twice about it. In my own home I celebrate Yule/Ostara but outside of my home I just go with the spirit of the season and don't bother bitching anybody out because they 'don't respect my beliefs'. I don't expect total strangers to know what I believe even though I openly wear a pentacle...so I just go with the flow. Besides, it's the beligerent assholes that make the rest of us look bad as a whole.

[Greenday]

Merry Christmas is basically the same thing as saying Happy Dec. 25th. People who are so prone to getting offended over that need to just never leave their house. Seriously, you don't have to be Christian in order to have a merry Christmas.

[Ghel]

That’s a horrible policy. More than just violating the students’ freedom of religion, it violates their freedom of speech. Saying “Merry Christmas” is not intended to provoke anyone (generally speaking). I can understand if the school wants the teachers and staff to avoid saying “Merry Christmas” in order to avoid insulting non-Christian students (and avoid the ban on teacher-led prayer), but to prohibit students from saying it is absurd.

If “Merry Christmas is prohibited, then are “Happy Solstice,” “Happy Kwanzaa,” “Happy Hanukkah,” “Happy Wintereenmas,” and “Joyous Yule” also prohibited?


I don’t understand how someone could take offense at having “Merry Christmas” said to them. I tend to take it as “I’m in a good mood and I hope you are, too.” Granted, I could understand the offense if someone was saying it to you specifically because they knew you weren’t Christian.

[Glados]

Yes, the other expressions were banned as well. Happy holidays and season's greetings are the only expressions permitted. There is only one non-Christian student in the class and the policy was implemented after this student was offended earlier. The incident with my cousin was separate and the student who was offended previously was not present.

I am still unsure of the legality of this policy. I can understand that the student who is not Christian would be very uncomfortable if all of the other students are expressing Christian views. However, I thought that schools were not allowed to implement policies that restricted speech or religion unless the act disrupted the classroom and the learning process.

[Greenday]

However, I thought that schools were not allowed to implement policies that restricted speech or religion unless the act disrupted the classroom and the learning process.

I was unaware of this. I was under the impression that the current "rules" on this one was you can pray and do religious stuff on your own time.

[RecoveringKinkoid]

In school it was well known I was an Atheist, I(and my Jewish friend*) was routinely harassed by students wishing each other a "merry Christmas" in a very snide manner in front of me, and in front of our sole practicing Jewish kid. =.

I do not understand this statement. How was it harassment aimed at you when it was a conversation that didn't include you, nor was it about you?

[Greenday]

I do not understand this statement. How was it harassment aimed at you when it was a conversation that didn't include you, nor was it about you?

You don't have to be a part of a conversation for it to be harassment. Any talk going on around you that makes you uncomfortable can be defined as harassment. At least it definitely can for sexual harassment anyway. Like when my co-worker constantly uses his favorite terms "cunt hair" to describe a very small distance or "tits perfect" and he's talking to someone else. The constant use of it actually makes me uncomfortable. Even though he might not directly be talking to me when he uses the terms, it still constitutes as sexual harassment.

Those kids, by flaunting that they celebrate Christmas and that BlaqueKatt and the one Jewish kid didn't, regardless of whether they were talking to BlaqueKatt or the Jewish kid, because they continued to do it and it made either person feel uncomfortable, it's harassment.

[smileyeagle1021]

I do not understand this statement. How was it harassment aimed at you when it was a conversation that didn't include you, nor was it about you?

that's the thing, it was aimed at them, the people were saying it in front of them for no other reason than to bother them. It's a very passive aggressive method of harassment, yet very common.

[Andara Bledin]

that's the thing, it was aimed at them, the people were saying it in front of them for no other reason than to bother them. It's a very passive aggressive method of harassment, yet very common.

I had a co-irker do this to me the other day, actually. She was pissed that I had a manager get on her case to do her job instead of fucking around, so while she was talking to another person in the same room, she made an overly loud comment about her "babysitter." She doesn't have any kids and lives alone. I imagine she'd rather have it out with me directly, but last time she got a little talking to about her behavior.

In the case of Christmas greetings, when a person makes a point of greeting everybody in the room and snubs the one person who is at all different, that's a subtle and often difficult to determine form of harassment.

^-.-^

[bara]

“Happy Wintereenmas,”

I will not allow you to take Wintereenmas! Gamers unite!!