The whole "Happy Holidays" vs. "Merry Christmas" argument

[Rapscallion]

I can completely understand bans on proselytizing, or religious hate speech. But to say that nobody is allowed to mention their beliefs ever is just going too far. Are Atheists allowed to talk about what they believe (or don't) since it's not technically a religion?
(No offense meant to any Atheists here)

I think the real key in the examples above is in what people consider to be reasonable.

In the atheist example, I would say that if person A asked person B which church they attended and was told that B was an atheist, and it left at that, then I'd find that reasonable. If A didn't understand and asked what that meant, I'd have no issue with an explanation. To take it further, I would expect some sort of request for permission from one side or the other to ask if the other person wanted to discuss it further.

Where it would come unreasonable for me would be if the atheist were to say that they didn't go to church for reason X, Y, or Z, and that anyone who did was a fool, or if the religious person started witnessing there and then.

On a legal note, under the US system you can say what you want and not be circumscribed by the government. Private institutions are able to operate under their own rules. However, it's more the rules of decent society that dictate what's reasonable.

In the UK, we have an automatic ability to exercise free speech barring a few things you don't want (inciting racial hatred etc). We even have an area of London called Speaker's Corner, which is more an area of a park where people get on soap boxes (used to be literally) and tell people why they're wankers.

That's what I'd call reasonable. Just asking if someone wants to debate is fine in my opinion. If not, then as long as their actions don't harm someone else then I can't see the problem with it - live and let live.

Rapscallion

[bara]

Yet another non-issue.

Who really gives a shit? Some people celebrate.. and others dont. I agree though that if someone is wishing you a happy/merry whatever a simple thankyou is nice. Other wise they need to have whatever is up their ass removed.

[Kelmon]

I am from Germany, and I have been following the "War on Christmas" in the US for a while now. And I still fail to understand what the problem is.

I guess with Germany being much less religious than the United States (33% non-believers, and most the remaining 66% belong to a religion because it says so on a piece of paper), we have quite a while ago started to see Christmas as what it is by now: A cultural holiday, which has religious roots that can or can not be observed.
So no matter if you are a believer or not (I am an atheist), you wish each other "Merry Christmas". Because it's Christmas. What else would it be?
And yes, our christmas trees are also on public property. Why wouldn't they?

I do know enough about US law to see where all of this coms from. First amendment (Freedom to practice religion and no endorsment of religion by the government) and of course the Treaty of Tripoli (The USA not having been founded as a christian state). But - I have to say: Sometimes i feel that US atheists (and non-christians) go a bit too far with protesting about this. There certainly are serious concerns about the treatment and perception of atheists in the US, but i feel annoying christians in that fashion might not the best way to solve this...

Of course I could be wrong and it's all the work of the PC crowd, tackling problems that are not actually worth tackling...as usual.

[Gravekeeper]

But - I have to say: Sometimes i feel that US atheists (and non-christians) go a bit too far with protesting about this. There certainly are serious concerns about the treatment and perception of atheists in the US, but i feel annoying christians in that fashion might not the best way to solve this...

In order to understand US atheists though, you have to understand US Christians or more specifically, the more...hardcore...ones that tend to gather in the southern reachs. You have to understand that these are people who do not believe in evolution ( and are literally forcing it out of public education in some areas ), they are anti-science and want religious ideals taught in its place in school. They want mandated prayer back in school. They want the freedom to display their beliefs and only their beliefs. They don't understand why they can't use the government to force their beliefs on others. They think being gay is a fashion choice. They hold rallies to burn the religious books of other religions because they're other religions made up of brown people.

Then, when they get called on it, they screech about persecution even though they're the majority ( Hence the War On Christmas thing every single year ).

US atheists are reacting to this particular culture. If you're from a secular or non-religious country, its difficult to understand or comprehend from the outside. I know it looks like pure fucking lunancy to me some days living in Canada.

Annoying them doesn't solve anything, no and lowers them to the level of that which they're against. But by the same measure, its not hard to understand why they try to annoy them in the first place either.

[Rapscallion]

[QUOTE=Gravekeeper;103008]In order to understand US atheists though, you have to understand US Christians or more specifically, the more...hardcore...ones that tend to gather in the southern reachs. You have to understand that these are people who do not believe in evolution ( and are literally forcing it out of public education in some areas ), they are anti-science and want religious ideals taught in its place in school. They want mandated prayer back in school. They want the freedom to display their beliefs and only their beliefs. They don't understand why they can't use the government to force their beliefs on others. They think being gay is a fashion choice. They hold rallies to burn the religious books of other religions because they're other religions made up of brown people./QUOTE]

The actions that I find most offensive are when someone admits to being an atheist and is then branded a satanist, ie part of their particular religion as the enemy. It shows a huge level of ignorance and paranoia, and for me that's one of the worst things they can do. Just invents bogeymen and perpetuates harmful myths.

On the annoying them side, I know just by having my views in a different country is annoying to them, and I know full well than if they had their way they'd arrange a crusade based on religion, rather than on economic needs with a religious justification. I also know that if they succeeded in their aims and converted everyone, they'd narrow down the parameters of what is accetable and turn on themselves.

Rapscallion

[Kelmon]

@Gravekeeper: Well, as I said in another thread I follow and participate in the whole theism vs. atheist discussion in the US (especially evolution vs. creationism), so what you're saying isn't exactly news to me, i'm afraid. I can recommend the site "fundies say the darndest things" for some (literally) unbelievable statements by some self-proclaimed christians.

Still....The whole christmas thing seems to me like a waste of time and manpower, which could be spent more productively. If atheists are actually behind most of this, and not other groups.

[bara]

This ranks up there with saying bless you when someone sneezes.

[Gravekeeper]

The actions that I find most offensive are when someone admits to being an atheist and is then branded a satanist, ie part of their particular religion as the enemy. It shows a huge level of ignorance and paranoia, and for me that's one of the worst things they can do. Just invents bogeymen and perpetuates harmful myths.

Which is kind of funny, seeing as a Satanist would not only be a theist but would technically be a believer in Christianity. Funnier still is the modern image of Satan these twits hold is completely made up and appears no where in the actual Bible. >.>

I also know that if they succeeded in their aims and converted everyone, they'd narrow down the parameters of what is accetable and turn on themselves.

Hell, they're doing this already and have been for some time. When someone's that much of a fundie, it becomes a contest to see who can out Jesus who. They compete for the claim of whose allegedly closest to God and carrying out his word as accurately as possible.....despite their actions being as completely inaccurate as possible to the original teachings they claim to follow. -.-

[Panacea]

A thought.

If happy holidays is acceptable for some, do they use that phrase at diwali or eid or the celebrations of religions other than christianity? Why is it only brought out at this time of year?

Forty years ago people said "Seasons Greetings," "Happy Holidays," and "Merry Christmas" interchangeably. They all meant the same thing. It wasn't corporate interests started using more inclusive terms that the whole "war on Christmas" conspiracy theory started.

his wife he starts ranting and raving.
"What holiday!? There are tons of holidays! My favorite holiday is Fourth of July! Is it a Fourth of July background? NO!? THEN CALL IT CHRISTMAS!"
Which I promptly ignored like he ignores his family because I didn't name the damn background.

My response to that is, "Lady, clearly Christmas is your favorite holiday or you wouldn't be defending it so hard."

In the UK, we have an automatic ability to exercise free speech barring a few things you don't want (inciting racial hatred etc). We even have an area of London called Speaker's Corner, which is more an area of a park where people get on soap boxes (used to be literally) and tell people why they're wankers.

We have that in the US, too, just not as widespread as it used to be. In New England, anyone can get on a soapbox in the town green and pontificate to their heart's content. My cousin in Massachusetts reads the Constitution aloud in the Green every 4th of July (and is oblivious to my suggestion she do that on Sept 17th, which is Constitution Day and that she should read the Declaration of Independence instead).

In order to understand US atheists though, you have to understand US Christians or more specifically, the more...hardcore...ones that tend to gather in the southern reachs.

I know the South gets a bad rap for this, but believe me, the Bible Belt stretches from the South all across the Midwest and up into the Northwest. And I know people in New England who are as bad as any fire breathing Baptist Southern firebrand.

The religious diversity in the South is actually quite broad: Catholics, Jews, Quakers (TONS of Quakers), and lots of other Christian denominations.

The actions that I find most offensive are when someone admits to being an atheist and is then branded a satanist, ie part of their particular religion as the enemy. It shows a huge level of ignorance and paranoia, and for me that's one of the worst things they can do. Just invents bogeymen and perpetuates harmful myths.

The people who brand atheists as Satanists just plain don't understand the terminology. By definition an atheist believes in NO divine beings; not God, not the Spirit, not the Son. They don't believe in demons or angels either, as a consequence.

This ranks up there with saying bless you when someone sneezes.

I once heard it said that saying God Bless You after a sneeze is blasphemy: you are commanding God to bless someone and no one commands God.

People get so worked up about Christmas, and Christ wasn't even born on Christmas Day. We don't know when he was born.

These fundies who get so worked up really should bone up on their Scripture. It says nothing about when Christ was born. The date was assigned arbitrarily by Constantine to coincide with Roman holidays, and make it easier to convert the pagans and heathens.

Some scholars believe Christ was born in the Spring, when the lambs were having their ewes and needed more supervision by the shepherds, who would stay at night with the flocks. This happens in the Spring.

[SpaceCore]

I could probably start a sightings thread over at CS, but this story from my brother fits here nicely.
My brother (T) hasn't changed his greetings at work at all this year, no merry Christmas, happy holidays or anything. It's not like Christmas is that big a deal in the big box store's auto shop he works in. So I'm just hanging out around the store waiting for him to finish up with a customer before I talk to him. At first his customer was all fine and dandy until he finished her transaction and...
T: Alright, here are your keys, have a nice day!
SC: What? Is that it?
T: I'm sorry?
SC: Have a nice day? That's it?
T: I don't follow.....
SC: Well APPARENTLY you're not conSIGnant of what season it is!
And the lady just grabs her keys and walks off with her nose in the air. And yes, I think she meant cognizant.

I told him he should have wished her a Happy Winter.

[HYHYBT]

If you set out looking for something to get offended at, you will always succeed. Sad that some people choose to live that way.

[Panacea]

Here's one way to resolve the dilemma . . .

http://www.thenoobcomic.com/headquar...mics/00413.jpg

[wolfie]

Now, my little cousins go to a school where mentioning any religion in any way = a 10 day suspension from school. It is considered to be violating the other students rights. I don't understand how suspending a child from school for simply mentioning their religion does not violate those same rights. Saying "merry Christmas" or "I am Catholic" is not by itself forcing your beliefs on the other person nor is it denying them the right to practice their religion.

Odin protect me from idiots! I wonder how that one would go over (considering the Norse pantheon is a "dead" religion). No indication of where this school is located, but if it's in an area with a large Hispanic population, "Mary had a baby boy, and named him Jesus" could simply be a recounting of a new addition to their extended family.

The actions that I find most offensive are when someone admits to being an atheist and is then branded a satanist, ie part of their particular religion as the enemy.

Those people are just plain ignorant - to an atheist, Satan (the God of Evil in the Judeo-Christian pantheon) is irrelevant. Satanism is an offshoot of Christianity, and has no relation to atheism. About the only "ism" denounced by Christians that could be associated with atheists (although to no greater or lesser degree than it could be associated with any other group) is Onanism.

I once heard it said that saying God Bless You after a sneeze is blasphemy: you are commanding God to bless someone and no one commands God.

One bumper sticker (not as popular now as it used to be) that shows either blasphemy or an astonishing ignorance of aviation law is "God is my co-pilot". I'd like to get one of those, and add a hand-written followup "and this PIC doesn't believe in CRM".

[jackfaire]

If you set out looking for something to get offended at, you will always succeed. Sad that some people choose to live that way.

Sir you have offended me! It should be the word by not at. Humph

Kidding.


In all seriousness though the only thing about Happy Holidays or Merry Christmas that bothers me are killjoys. I personally don't care about the origins of the Holiday I don't celebrate Thanksgiving or Christmas because of origins I celebrate them because of what they mean to me personally. That has jack to do with anyone else.

[HYHYBT]

One bumper sticker (not as popular now as it used to be) that shows either blasphemy or an astonishing ignorance of aviation law is "God is my co-pilot". I'd like to get one of those, and add a hand-written followup "and this PIC doesn't believe in CRM".

I've heard *of* that one, but the only version I've actually seen was on a church sign which said, "If God is your copilot, switch seats."

(I don't go to a church that puts up such things, but there sure are a lot of them around. I swear they get them out of a book or something, because the same things move from one to another and it's unlikely that whoever puts them up at any of them drives the routes I was doing.)

Anyway, for those of us less aviation-minded, would you mind explaining the part about aviation law and your addition?

I don't celebrate Thanksgiving or Christmas because of origins I celebrate them because of what they mean to me personally.

Same here, really.