The whole "Happy Holidays" vs. "Merry Christmas" argument

[bex1218]

I only write Xmas when I am texting. I usually don't say it like that. Unless I want to be funny.

[Seifer]

I only write Xmas when I am texting. I usually don't say it like that. Unless I want to be funny.

I think that's the entire reason the shorthand was invented. They used it (and still do) a lot in advertising. Since you pay by the word/letter, it's cheaper to put X-Mas instead of writing out the full word.

[fireheart17]

There was a HUGE hub-bub down here about how Halloween is an American holiday and what's next, Thanksgiving?

I managed to set them straight by pointing out the origins of the festival, that it's been celebrated in the UK and Ireland well before the Americans did it and that Thanksgiving is actually to do with US history, sort of like how Proclamation Day is considered to be a holiday down here (celebrating the formation of my state).
Someone then proceeded to chide me for how Australians technically celebrate Samhain on the 1st of May (swapping the dates around since it's Southern Hemisphere and all). I then proceeded to point out that by that logic, we should be celebrating Christmas MUCH earlier given that a number of traditions came from Yule.

[AmbrosiaWriter]

I just saw this on my facebook:

" Let's just get this out of the way early: I do not celebrate Christmas. I am offended that you automatically assume I do. You are not simply hoping that I have a good time, it is not a simple greeting or parting of good will. You are suggesting that I might have a good time at an event I do not celebrate or condone. If you want to wish me a good day, say as such. Be more considerate of other people whose lives are not just like your own. "

I promptly responded with "Merry Christmas, asshole. Get the stick out of your ass." (We're often crude to one another.)

Despite what anyone says, there is a date that is globally known as being "Christmas" just like there is a date that is nationally known in the USA as being "Independence Day." Therefore, if someone wishes you "Merry Christmas" they are wishing that you have a good, merry December 25th, no matter what religion you are or what you celebrate.

[Panacea]

Despite what anyone says, there is a date that is globally known as being "Christmas" just like there is a date that is nationally known in the USA as being "Independence Day." Therefore, if someone wishes you "Merry Christmas" they are wishing that you have a good, merry December 25th, no matter what religion you are or what you celebrate.

Well, let's face facts: December 25th is a religious holy day for about a sixth of the world's population, even if more and more people celebrate it strictly in a secular sense. The holiday has a reason for its existence, and to say Merry Christmas is more than just a well wish upon the person you deliver it to. It is an acknowledgement of celebration; the celebration of the birth of Jesus Christ and the message of hope and reconciliation with God that his birth brings.

People forget that when Christians celebrate certain holidays like Christmas, we are actually celebrating; it's SUPPOSED to be a joyful occasion. The folks who have their stick up the ass are reacting against the greeting because of their feelings towards religion, and it is their right to do so. It would be nice if people could take the greeting with the intent of goodwill that is behind it, regardless of their feelings about religion. Unfortunately, it just doesn't happen.

If people are going to insist on being unhappy if I say Merry Christmas, well, that's their privilege. On the other hand, I'm not changing my habit because someone might choose to take offense.

[AmbrosiaWriter]

My point is that I dislike when people read so deeply into something that doesn't have that much depth to it. The person on facebook was acting like the people wishing him a good <insert holiday here> had done it with some malevolent intent to try and force him to view the world the way they do, when really they just want to give him a happy salutation of good cheer.

There are many people who celebrate Christmas for the birth of Christ. There are many people who celebrate it as a holiday for family, togetherness, and gift giving, without a single thought to the birth of Christ - basically they have completely secularized it in their own form of celebrating the day.

Both of these groups will wish people "Merry Christmas" (or some of both groups will wish people Happy Holidays.) I'm going to go out on a limb and say neither of these groups are wishing it to people with the intent to specify it for the person to only receive the "blessing" (as it were) if and only if they are celebrating Christmas.

[BlaqueKatt]

People forget that when Christians celebrate certain holidays like Christmas, we are actually celebrating; it's SUPPOSED to be a joyful occasion.

I'll just leave this here

Why is it considered an attack to say "holidays," to say "seasonal?" I mean, don't you want other people to join you in joy? Why are you excluding other people? I don't think there should be any sort of, you're not allowed to say Christmas. I think you're fine putting up your trees. I think you're fine talking about Santa Claus and you're fine talking about Jesus Christ, about equal to me. But why leave me out? Why do that? What's your motive? And trying to turn around a "we want to leave you out," into "why are you forcing us to not have our joy," is insanity. It's backwards.

So sure, sure, say Christmas, but you're leaving out right about now close to 30 percent of the population of the United States of America that you are telling, I'm not talking to you. Why can't you just say, it's a beautiful season, we all love each other. Let's all have a good time. Why is that terrible?

Also

If people are going to insist on being unhappy if I say Merry Christmas, well, that's their privilege. On the other hand, I'm not changing my habit because someone might choose to take offense.

So you're deliberately doing something you know may cause offense, and then blaming them for being offended? Because even though you knew it might cause offense, it's somehow not your fault because it wasn't meant that way, even though you could avoid the issue altogether, but choose not to? that makes zero sense, and tells me you're almost trying to create self-victimhood, by offending someone and then blaming them for not thinking/celebrating the same as you. It's exclusionary, and exactly what Penn Gillette was talking about(which is highlighted in red).

[TheHuckster]

So you're deliberately doing something you know may cause offense, and then blaming them for being offended? Because even though you knew it might cause offense, it's somehow not your fault because it wasn't meant that way, even though you could avoid the issue altogether, but choose not to? that makes zero sense, and tells me you're almost trying to create self-victimhood, by offending someone and then blaming them for not thinking/celebrating the same as you. It's exclusionary, and exactly what Penn Gillette was talking about(which is highlighted in red).

It's damned if you do, damned if you don't. I can say "Merry Christmas" to one person, and they get offended that I didn't use a more inclusive greeting. I say "Happy Holidays" to another person and they get offended that I used what they deem a politically correct greeting.

You seem to be under the impression that saying "Happy Holidays" is some offensive-proof greeting when it is not. During the month of December, unless you're a psychic or you know everyone you meet, you're going to offend someone during that month no matter what you say.

Regardless, both sides, IMO, are making a huge mountain out of a molehill. I don't get bent out of shape when someone says "Happy Holidays" to me, despite me being a Christian. If someone wished me a "Happy Hanukkah" I also wouldn't be bent out of shape, even though I'm not Jewish. Instead, I'd figure, "Ah, he must be Jewish," and move on with my life.

[HYHYBT]

When I say "merry Christmas" or "season's greetings" or "happy holidays" or whatever other phrase along those lines, it is meant in the spirit of "peace on earth, goodwill to men." Saying any of them deliberately to provoke a negative reaction, which a few people on both sides insist on doing, goes against the whole idea. But knowing that some people will insist on taking offence is not the same thing! Speaking to a specific person you know well enough to tell, the yhing to do is to avoid a greeting you know will offend, just as, even if you normally say "sir" or "ma'am" you shouldn't if the person you're addressing had repeatedly told you not to. But addressing a group or a stranger, you can't really be expected to go further than being nice and hoping that they have the decency to recognize intent. If they don't, well, that's a fault of theirs, not yours.

[Andara Bledin]

So you're deliberately doing something you know may cause offense, and then blaming them for being offended?

Absolutely everything you could possibly do "may cause offense," including absolutely nothing.

Plus, the other people in that scenario are choosing to be offended by making assumptions about the person they're offended at because they're assuming that that person made assumptions about them. It's their own prejudice that's got them offended, not the prejudice that they assume a complete stranger has towards them.

I find it fascinating that the offended seem to think that the one giving the greeting should be able to read their minds and instinctively know which phrase of well-wishing is the appropriate one while completely ignoring the actual act of them wishing them well.

^-.-^

[wolfie]

Despite what anyone says, there is a date that is globally known as being "Christmas" just like there is a date that is nationally known in the USA as being "Independence Day." Therefore, if someone wishes you "Merry Christmas" they are wishing that you have a good, merry December 25th, no matter what religion you are or what you celebrate.

And no matter whether your December 25th is according to the Julian or Gregorian calendar.

[BlaqueKatt]

Plus, the other people in that scenario are choosing to be offended by making assumptions about the person they're offended at because they're assuming that that person made assumptions about them. It's their own prejudice that's got them offended, not the prejudice that they assume a complete stranger has towards them.

that is almost clear, here let's use something other than "merry christmas/happy holidays" and you may understand why what you're suggesting is preposterous.

I make a joke about Rape/child molestation, because hey it's a joke, it's funny!

Oh no, Sara is a survivor of rape/child molestation, and she CHOSE to be be offended.

But I only said it because I thought it was funny, so she's being prejudiced against me, using that ^ logic, I didn't know she had been through that, not my fault, I was just trying to make her laugh.

So I'm not at all to blame.

See how that doesn't work so well?

there was a previous thread, about how meaning and intent are separate, had to do with derogatory terms.

interesting how that was decided that the person making the statement was at fault, for causing offense(I believe the n-word, and 'fag' were given as examples at some point), because what was intended, wasn't what was communicated.

Would you blame someone for being upset at hearing the word Faggot(even if said in jest, or said by a Canadian asking for a smoke)?(OMG that's offensive!)
But you'll blame someone for being upset at merry christmas?(grow up/get over yourself)

interesting.

[Nekojin]

that is almost clear, here let's use something other than "merry christmas/happy holidays" and you may understand why what you're suggesting is preposterous.

I make a joke about Rape/child molestation, because hey it's a joke, it's funny!

Oh no, Sara is a survivor of rape/child molestation, and she CHOSE to be be offended.

But I only said it because I thought it was funny, so she's being prejudiced against me, using that logic, I didn't know she had been through that, not my fault, I was just trying to make her laugh.

So I'm not at all to blame.

See how that doesn't work so well?

Strawman arguments don't make your point stronger, they make it weaker.

[BlaqueKatt]

Strawman arguments don't make your point stronger, they make it weaker.

except, it's not a strawman. I'm trying to show that the "logic" of saying the offended party is to blame for being offended, is illogical. Using an example to show something doesn't hold water does not automatically make it a strawman.

If it was logical, then anytime someone was offended it would be the offended person's fault, and that is not the case. It's only in this instance that it is, apparently, and the only reason I can come up with for that is because religion is involved and religious beliefs "must be treated with kid gloves." Notice it's the people being offended by Merry christmas, being told to "get over themselves" and not a peep about the "keep the christ in christmas whargarlble" getting over themselves?

"tolerance is extended to policies, conditions, and modes of behavior which should not be tolerated because they are impeding, if not destroying, the chances of creating an existence without fear and misery."- Herbert Marcuse

I also find it interesting, all the "I wouldn't be offended if someone wished me happy Kwaanza", if it had ever happened, the term would be I wasn't, which means the situation has never occurred, and cannot be paralleled.

Chances are given statistics of religion, I will never hear "happy Hanukah" I'm 37, and in all my dealings, have yet to hear it ever, I hear "merry christmas" 30-40 times a day minimum(and usually say thank you, or have a good day). And have been told numerous times I was going to burn in hell for not saying it back(average on that, about 50 times a year), which means the intent was NOT to wish me goodwill, it was to judge me as non-religious.

[Nekojin]

except, it's not a strawman. I'm trying to show that the "logic" of saying the offended party is to blame for being offended, is illogical. Using an example to show something doesn't hold water does not automatically make it a strawman.

It's a strawman, because you're using a non-equivalent situation as though it were equivalent. You even know it's non-equivalent, because you're not an idiot, and you know that rape and child molestation are extremely sensitive subjects, and not something that people can just laugh and joke about if it's happened to them.

There's no way to make a rape joke or child molestation joke good-natured. It's simply not possible - you're making jokes about one of the worst things that people can experience. While you may not mean offense by it, that doesn't make it good-natured.

In contrast, most people wishing you "Happy Holidays" or "Merry Christmas" are offering it in good faith - it's a well-wishing of the season.

If it was logical, then anytime someone was offended it would be the offended person's fault, and that is not the case. It's only in this instance that it is, apparently, and the only reason I can come up with for that is because religion is involved and religious beliefs "must be treated with kid gloves." Notice it's the people being offended by Merry christmas, being told to "get over themselves" and not a peep about the "keep the christ in christmas whargarlble" getting over themselves?

You're wrong. Flat-out, no question, wrong. Because some of the discussion that has been going on here is some religious people getting offended at being offered, "Happy Holidays," as well as some non-religious (or other-religioned) folks getting bent out of shape for being offered, "Merry Christmas."

"tolerance is extended to policies, conditions, and modes of behavior which should not be tolerated because they are impeding, if not destroying, the chances of creating an existence without fear and misery."- Herbert Marcuse

Way to take a quote out of context and apply it to an inapplicable situation. I think Marcuse would be offended, if he were still alive.

I also find it interesting, all the "I wouldn't be offended if someone wished me happy Kwaanza", if it had ever happened, the term would be I wasn't, which means the situation has never occurred, and cannot be paralleled.

I've been offered, "Happy Kwanzaa," and it's just fine with me. I've also offered people a, "Kickass Kwanzaa, Super Solstice, and Fabulous Festivus," all at once, and not had anyone (so far) get offended at that.