Atheist messages displace CA park nativity scenes

[Gravekeeper]

Interesting point, and would - for example - a muslim group dare to raise its profile in the modern US? Would it be safe for them? However, the demand isn't the same as the option to be able to do it. I'm talking equality, not likely take-up.

I'm impressed Muslim groups dare congregate anywhere in public view in the US. <cough>. But that aside, technically everyone here has the option its just the local populace is largely Christian.

Damn, I was hoping nobody could ruin genitalia for me...

I can ruin anything. It's a gift.

One of the theists quoted as angry doesn't even live there, but attends church in the town. Definitely both sides.

Oh I'm sure. They poked the bigger tribe with a stick, so its going to come down on them in a swarm of OMFG WAR ON CHRISTMAS. >.>

Without being in the guy's head, though, I'd find it hard to say what his true motive was. Were I over there and minded to get involved, it would definitely be my motive.

Vix sounds like a little bit of a dick to be honest. But his signage wasn't that bad. AA's on the other hand was the troll bait.

Oh, I don't know. They've done some good. Tides go in, tides go out - spawned an entire 'are you serious?' meme.

I'll give him that one yes. But everything else he's done has been pretty dickish.

I suspect and hope that the rules are going to be amended to include residency.

They're going to have to amend them at this point me thinks. Else it may turn into an even bigger battleground next year.

I'm not convinced that the examples I've seen of their work is actually taunting. I've read their stuff - one is a contested quote from someone who had plenty of others that could have been used, another asks if you can see any myths (and includes several examples of different religious figures), and the third simply says 'happy solstice', and that can hardly be said to be offensive. The others being empty is, to my admittedly partisan approach, a good example of what they believe in.

The contested quote was a tad stupid, but not really offensive. Happy Solstice was fine too. It was the Myths one that was trollbait, and AA put that one up. It was a couple of different Atheist groups here and I don't think they were all ill intentioned. AA, however, me thinks was just judging from their general attitude and how they went about it here.

I guess it teeters on whether or not they planned to take all of the spots or whether that was an impromptu dick move by the specific individuals that won them during the raffle. Did it mention who the two were that did that? I could maybe give the first guy a pass as he might have thought "Crap this is all we're going to get, I better ask for the max so we have enough for all of us!". But the second guy was definately being a dick.

I think a lot more outrage has been taken than should have been possible to take. It may be that the media has decided (as usual) to put that front and centre of all articles about the issue.

Which, really, they should be aware of and plan for accordingly. The media would plaster their signs all over the news for the outrage factor. Why not have those signs be meanful instead of rage bait ( Referring to AA )?

I have to admit that I'd prefer people to think about the issue instead of blindly following their religious doctrines, and that outraged people are going to find reasons to continue being outraged, but that's been my experience of too many religious people to be comfortable.

They're comfortable in the US because they're a vast majority and against all rationality, they've been given political and social power. >.>

[Rapscallion]

Vix sounds like a little bit of a dick to be honest. But his signage wasn't that bad. AA's on the other hand was the troll bait.

From what I understand, he took advice from AA and he was the one who put it up, so some culpability is his - if you agree that there is culpability on this.

I'll give him that one yes. But everything else he's done has been pretty dickish.

Must admit that I've not followed his antics. Any examples?

They're going to have to amend them at this point me thinks. Else it may turn into an even bigger battleground next year.

I suspect that's already well underway, and hopefuly to allow everyone the chance to display all year around. I suspect the latter is not going to be at the forefront of reformation, though.

I guess it teeters on whether or not they planned to take all of the spots or whether that was an impromptu dick move by the specific individuals that won them during the raffle. Did it mention who the two were that did that? I could maybe give the first guy a pass as he might have thought "Crap this is all we're going to get, I better ask for the max so we have enough for all of us!". But the second guy was definately being a dick.

Would be interesting to find out.

Which, really, they should be aware of and plan for accordingly. The media would plaster their signs all over the news for the outrage factor. Why not have those signs be meanful instead of rage bait ( Referring to AA )?

Depends - as earlier any dissension from 'THE TRUTH (tm)' is ragebait to some, which is interesting as the reports I've seen seem to indicate that the locals are put out or sad, yet the main rage is on forums/talk shows/blogs etc.

They're comfortable in the US because they're a vast majority and against all rationality, they've been given political and social power. >.>

As I said earlier, complacent is a generous term under the circumstances.

Rapscallion

[Duelist925]

Raps, I must ask a question: You keep saying you would be more ok with the supposed christian bias if the slots were open for allotment to any religious display all year round.

What I have to ask is...what other religion has a display like this, other than around this time of year?

Diwali, which you mentioned earlier, wouldn't. It's primarily about lighting up ones own home. And fireworks at times.

Ramadan, Islamic month of fasting....no real displays there.

Most pagan/neopagan holidays either fall around halloween, with it's own type of decorations, or involve say a bonfire type festival, which I imagine wouldn't be allowed in a public park for any number of safety reasons.

Day of the Dead--again, primarily about private displays in the home, and somewhat coopted by the catholic All Saints Day in any case.

And a host of others--admittedly, I haven't done exhaustive research over this, just doddling around in wikipedia looking up religious holidays and festivals, but so far I haven't seen any that are associated with any big displays.

Perhaps the park hasn't opened such allotment year round simply because theres been no interest, because there are either no other, or so few displays of this kind at other times of the year that there is simply no demand for it.

I welcome any corrections however.

[Rapscallion]

Raps, I must ask a question: You keep saying you would be more ok with the supposed christian bias if the slots were open for allotment to any religious display all year round.

All religions and viewpoints, or none.

What I have to ask is...what other religion has a display like this, other than around this time of year?

Christianity doesn't require these displays as part of the religious observances either.

Rapscallion

[Andara Bledin]

All religions and viewpoints, or none.

All are allowed to participate if they so choose.

Christianity doesn't require these displays as part of the religious observances either.

No one mentioned anything about requiring any observance; just that many other religions that have observances tend to be focused on private observance, and not the public spectacle that Christmas displays have become.

^-.-^

[Duelist925]

All religions and viewpoints, or none.



Christianity doesn't require these displays as part of the religious observances either.

Rapscallion

Ok. But that wasn't my question: I asked what other religions have a display like this...at all? I don;t care wether it's required,or just a long held tradition. Either way...what other religions have such a display, other than around this time of year anyway?

Maybe I've just been sheltered, but I've never heard of any other religious display that wasn't either very private, or simply not big enough to warrant park space. Or of a sort that wouldn;t be allowed in a park, due to safety reasons. Maybe I'm wrong.

Again, I welcome correction if I am.

[Rapscallion]

All are allowed to participate if they so choose.

The point has once again been missed.

"Hey, look. We're allowing any religion to participate. We're only doing this at the time of year when the christians have their main celebrations, thought. Weee! Lovely and fair!"

It's a time of year when many religions don't have their main celebrations.

No one mentioned anything about requiring any observance; just that many other religions that have observances tend to be focused on private observance, and not the public spectacle that Christmas displays have become.

I don't know - Diwali can be pretty ostentatious. Light shows, melas, addition of laser shows now. Eid tends to be more family still, with neighbourhood firecrackers and the like. I'm pretty certain they could come up with something to display, though.

Ok. But that wasn't my question: I asked what other religions have a display like this...at all? I don;t care wether it's required,or just a long held tradition. Either way...what other religions have such a display, other than around this time of year anyway?

It's not about whether or not they display - it's the chance to display.

Maybe I've just been sheltered, but I've never heard of any other religious display that wasn't either very private, or simply not big enough to warrant park space. Or of a sort that wouldn;t be allowed in a park, due to safety reasons. Maybe I'm wrong.

Easy way to find out. http://www.google.com

I'd do it for you, but I'm out of the door in a few minutes to take my car in for a service. The pocket says 'ouch'.

Rapscallion

[Andara Bledin]

The point has once again been missed.

No, I understand what you're trying to say.

But, other than you, nobody seems to care that the spaces are only available during the time of traditional renewal festivals that are celebrated in some manner by just about every religion and culture in the northern hemisphere.

Vix would actually be against making them available more often as he doesn't want them to be there at all, ever. Which he somehow campaigns for by becoming part of what he has a problem with in the first place. Not really sure how that works, but I guess it somehow makes sense to him.

^-.-^

[Rapscallion]

I'd prefer it if they weren't there, but if they're going to be there they should be available for everyone at all times.

The three non-atheists who joined in with Vix on this apparently care as that's the reason they came in with him on it. I don't think he's become part of the problem - he's just showing it up for what it is from inside.

Rapscallion

[Duelist925]

The point has once again been missed.

"Hey, look. We're allowing any religion to participate. We're only doing this at the time of year when the christians have their main celebrations, thought. Weee! Lovely and fair!"

It's a time of year when many religions don't have their main celebrations.



I don't know - Diwali can be pretty ostentatious. Light shows, melas, addition of laser shows now. Eid tends to be more family still, with neighbourhood firecrackers and the like. I'm pretty certain they could come up with something to display, though.



It's not about whether or not they display - it's the chance to display.

Again though, you miss my point: Why would the allotments be open if there are no displays to put up? You say they can come up with something...do they want to? According to what I've read of Diwali, its primarily ab out lighting ones own home--some people go as overboard as some christians do with the xmas lights, but its still primarily about the home.

I'm with you--if there are other religions, or philosophical groups, or what have you, that want to put up displays at other times of the year, good for them they should be able to--but there just dont seem to BE any other displays. Or if there are. Supply and demand after all--if no one is requesting for park displays in the middle of summer, why would they have an allotment system then?

The nativity display is something of a tradition, not required--and again, I'm not an expert, but according to my google fu there simply aren't any other such displays that wouldn't violate some safety requirement. (ie, a bonfire of some kind or the like)

I'd do it for you, but I'm out of the door in a few minutes to take my car in for a service. The pocket says 'ouch'.

Rapscallion

Yikes. Make sure to put a bandaid on that....

[Rapscallion]

Again though, you miss my point: Why would the allotments be open if there are no displays to put up?

I don't miss it - there's no relevance to it. If they wanted to put up a display, would they have had the same opportunity and protection afforded to christianity? Apparently not - that's where I run into issues.

Yikes. Make sure to put a bandaid on that....

Oil leak found - not actually burning. I was very lucky to discover it. That's £250, on top of £250 for the service. Add in a brake fluid change plus some work a bit back and in the last six weeks the car has cost me more than its value in basic maintenance. Oh, and the same place resealed my doors and the driver's door now opens if it feels like it. Not their doing, and they are gracious enough to admit that it's only going to be £411 to sort it out.

The fek? That's only inconvenient. That can wait.

Rapscallion

[Duelist925]

I don't miss it - there's no relevance to it. If they wanted to put up a display, would they have had the same opportunity and protection afforded to christianity? Apparently not - that's where I run into issues.

I fail to see how there isn't relevance--if there are no other displays other than around this time of year, why would there be an allotment service? The only reason you would have an allotment service such as this is if there are many people competing to put up displays at one time, to make sure its fair--if there are few, or no, displays, an allotment service like this is not necessary. If there is no demand for it...why would, or indeed, should it exist?

Oil leak found - not actually burning. I was very lucky to discover it. That's £250, on top of £250 for the service. Add in a brake fluid change plus some work a bit back and in the last six weeks the car has cost me more than its value in basic maintenance. Oh, and the same place resealed my doors and the driver's door now opens if it feels like it. Not their doing, and they are gracious enough to admit that it's only going to be £411 to sort it out.

The fek? That's only inconvenient. That can wait.

Rapscallion

Yikes....>.< I lost my car about a month ago, thanks to my own stupidity. Before that, I had one that I sunk maybe three times how much I actually spent for it. I feel your pain.

[Rapscallion]

I fail to see how there isn't relevance--if there are no other displays other than around this time of year, why would there be an allotment service? The only reason you would have an allotment service such as this is if there are many people competing to put up displays at one time, to make sure its fair--if there are few, or no, displays, an allotment service like this is not necessary. If there is no demand for it...why would, or indeed, should it exist?

The definition of equality for me is that everyone is afforded the same chances. Whether they take them up or not is their problem.

The lottery system is irrelevant to this point. The high seasonal demand is irrelevant. If the same chance isn't afforded to all religions, then it should not be offered to any.

Rapscallion

[Duelist925]

The definition of equality for me is that everyone is afforded the same chances. Whether they take them up or not is their problem.

The lottery system is irrelevant to this point. The high seasonal demand is irrelevant. If the same chance isn't afforded to all religions, then it should not be offered to any.

Rapscallion

I think I may be misunderstanding your point: are you argueing against the allotment system itself, or against religious displays in the park whatsoever based on the possible bias?

If the first, I'm simply saying an allotment system is not necessary if there is only one group/person wanting to set something up. It's only necessary if there are enough people that space becomes an issue.

If only 0-3 people want to set up a display, the park doesnt need an allotment system. so it would only need be brought up when demand skyrockets--ie, around the end of the year.


If your argueing the second...yeah, I can't disagree. If one religion is allowed to set up a display in the park, any religious group should be able to.

[Rapscallion]

The allotment system is irrelevant to my point. It's a fair enough methodology of apportioning display spaces if there's more demand than availability.

My main point is on the separation of church and state. I'm sure they would allow any religion to set up a display at any time of the year, but the ones in question are specifically given facilities by the local authorities for their protection from vandals etc, including guaranteed space.

I'd prefer not to have religious displays on public land at all, but if we're going to have them then the same opportunities should be available to all religions at all times of year.

Rapscallion