Atheist messages displace CA park nativity scenes

[Skunkle]

The message as posted doesn't offend me, so much as I have a feeling it was intended to, if not be offensive, at least not really win any converts. Not that said group was necessarily after that.

My big question is: I wouldn't think Atheists would really have a celebration at that time of the year, thus the only reason I can see for buying slots was to actively (angrily?) counter the indeed nearly all-Christian former displays - which, for all I know, got really gaudy (the sort of thing with Jesus on the cross with blood dripping from the wounds, etc. - I've seen that in Christmas displays and I find it way over-the-top).

Like I said, my general message here is that grabbing up spots with the deliberate purpose of putting nothing there, only leaving them empty so that other interested parties cannot use them, is akin to the aforementioned kid who gets hold of the ball on the playground and, instead of playing with it, kicks it over the fence. The messages they put up are A-OK with me, but I'd like to see a requirement that leaving a space blank to send an "I'm not using it and neither can you" message is tacky.

[Iseeyouthere]

The message as posted doesn't offend me, so much as I have a feeling it was intended to, if not be offensive, at least not really win any converts. Not that said group was necessarily after that.

My big question is: I wouldn't think Atheists would really have a celebration at that time of the year, thus the only reason I can see for buying slots was to actively (angrily?) counter the indeed nearly all-Christian former displays - which, for all I know, got really gaudy (the sort of thing with Jesus on the cross with blood dripping from the wounds, etc. - I've seen that in Christmas displays and I find it way over-the-top).

Like I said, my general message here is that grabbing up spots with the deliberate purpose of putting nothing there, only leaving them empty so that other interested parties cannot use them, is akin to the aforementioned kid who gets hold of the ball on the playground and, instead of playing with it, kicks it over the fence. The messages they put up are A-OK with me, but I'd like to see a requirement that leaving a space blank to send an "I'm not using it and neither can you" message is tacky.

The messages aren't made to offend. Mainly, they are there for people to have a think about.

Your big question... Why would you assume that athiests don't celebrate anything at this time of year? We can celebrate a number of things, they just don't have to be religious. I celebrate time with my family... why do I need to worship 'jeebus' to celebrate that?
Your question raises more questions.


""I'm not using it and neither can you" message is tacky".
Maybe, but I doubt the message would of sunken in if they allowed the remaining settings to be filled with religious settings.

[Andara Bledin]

Maybe, but I doubt the message would of sunken in if they allowed the remaining settings to be filled with religious settings.

What was that message, exactly?

From what I see, they had 18 spaces and only used 3. They couldn't find another 15 things to say that might be interesting and on point?

That's just sad.

^-.-^

[Iseeyouthere]

So... To get a message across... we need to spam it in every little area we can get.

[Andara Bledin]

So... To get a message across... we need to spam it in every little area we can get.

Why take an area if you're not going to use it other than out of spite?

^-.-^

[Iseeyouthere]

I'm reminded of a clever ad program... "Use only what you need".

http://www.adpunch.org/entry/denver-...what-you-need/

It is just spiteful that they are only using a little bit of it when another company would of used the whole lot.
Look at all that wasted space. Surely they could give the rest of the space to another company who wants to use that space for their advertisting.

They should let Mc'Donalds use the rest of the space. Or Subway. But no. They are just being spiteful and taking the whole space, using very little and not letting another company in on the space.


Or... that could be part of the message they are trying to send.

[SkullKing]

Oh, I don't know. Leaving empty displays did in fact demonstrate what they believe in.


Rapscallion

I never thought about it this way.

It does make a certain scence.

Personally i like those "be good for goodness sake" ads from a past thread.

[AdminAssistant]

Why take an area if you're not going to use it other than out of spite?

A protest against publicly supported religious displays?

[Andara Bledin]

A protest against publicly supported religious displays?

They're not publicly supported. The idea that they are is wrong and ignorant. They are private displays that are on public land and who gets them is based on who wants them and asks, and random chance.

As for the idea that empty, barren, wasted spaces are somehow conveying a message other than greed and spite... Are they really that lacking in imagination that they couldn't offer more than 3 ways to appeal to people, one of which was wrong and another of which was insulting? I'm willing to bet that any one of us here could have come up with a dozen ideas to fill those other spaces, yet an entire organization devoted to the concept of supporting atheists couldn't manage it.

^-.-^

[AdminAssistant]

They're not publicly supported. The idea that they are is wrong and ignorant. They are private displays that are on public land and who gets them is based on who wants them and asks, and random chance.

So, you'd be okay with the Ten Commandments on display in a courthouse, as long as a Christian group foots the bill? Besides, it's not like there's a shortage of Baby-Jesus-in-a-manger displays during the month of December. Personally, I wouldn't want ugly chicken-wire fences cluttering up a park, which should have trees and flowers and benches and stuff like that. If they're going to keep them up, a better idea would be to offer the spaces up to non-religious charities, with a big prize to the best display.

[Rapscallion]

They're not publicly supported. The idea that they are is wrong and ignorant. They are private displays that are on public land and who gets them is based on who wants them and asks, and random chance.

Next to last point I make here hasn't been answered. Are those displays available at any other time of year for religious displays from any other faiths? If not, it's pretty suggestive that it's for the christian religion only.

As for the idea that empty, barren, wasted spaces are somehow conveying a message other than greed and spite...

Not specifically your point here, but I've seen quite a number of words put into the atheist's mouths in this thread from several people. Why is it spiteful? Because you disagree? Because for once the theists didn't get their way? Very emotive language being used and nasty attitudes being ascribed that simply aren't borne out from what I can see.

Are they really that lacking in imagination that they couldn't offer more than 3 ways to appeal to people,

Well, if they put more up, they'd be told they were being insulting, I'm sure.

one of which was wrong and another of which was insulting?

Yup, that train's never late.

I'm willing to bet that any one of us here could have come up with a dozen ideas to fill those other spaces, yet an entire organization devoted to the concept of supporting atheists couldn't manage it.

^-.-^

As I mentioned before, I consider the lack of displays a very eloquent display of their position on religion.

My big question is: I wouldn't think Atheists would really have a celebration at that time of the year,

Depends on the atheists, really. I've heard some argue that they celebrate what the season has become (I heard one comment a while ago about 'commercialmas', though most stick with family and friends), not necessarily the claimed origins. For me, it's just another day - I take the view that I celebrate being alive every day, and I don't reserve it for special times of the year.

thus the only reason I can see for buying slots was to actively (angrily?) counter the indeed nearly all-Christian former displays - which, for all I know, got really gaudy (the sort of thing with Jesus on the cross with blood dripping from the wounds, etc. - I've seen that in Christmas displays and I find it way over-the-top).

No idea what they had on before. I've seen no evidence in any of the other articles about that.

From where do you get the thought that they did this angrily? I'm still seeing intent being ascribed.

If I said that the theistic displays were aggressively trying to rub their particular beliefs in the faces of everyone around by enforcing religion into everyone's lives, then I'd be expected to prove intent. I can't accept the claim that they did it with malice in mind. If they'd put up messages akin to 'I shit on your bible' then I'd have been denouncing it as much as anyone else.

They were as entitled to put up their message as much as anyone else.

So, a question for the theists. Are you so scared by the concept of there being nothing awaiting you? Is that what causes the offence?

Rapscallion

[Andara Bledin]

So, you'd be okay with the Ten Commandments on display in a courthouse, as long as a Christian group foots the bill?

If the space allotted was made available to all comers and no favoritism was shown and it was shown that the space was not supported or necessarily representative of the facility in question, then I would have absolutely no problem with the Ten Commandments being on display in a courthouse.

From more than one article:

City Attorney Marsha Moutrie wrote in an email that the issue is one of First Amendment rights.

"The Supreme Court and federal appellate courts have designated public parks and public streets as the classic public forums in which individuals have maximum First Amendment protection," Moutrie wrote, explaining that the city cannot choose which displays go up based on content.

Public parks are particularly protected when it comes to matters of free speech and the First Amendment, so the idea that these displays don't belong in this or any other park is completely the reverse of what is true.

Besides, it's not like there's a shortage of Baby-Jesus-in-a-manger displays during the month of December.

Irrelevant - moving on.

Personally, I wouldn't want ugly chicken-wire fences cluttering up a park, which should have trees and flowers and benches and stuff like that.

I imagine that the revenue from the rental of the spaces in the park goes to provide for things like trees and grass and benches and maintenance to keep it all nice.

If they're going to keep them up, a better idea would be to offer the spaces up to non-religious charities, with a big prize to the best display.

Except then they'd be practicing religious discrimination - exactly the problem that so many claim to be against - at least until it's 'the other side' that's being discriminated against, anyway. I just don't get why people cannot see the hypocrisy.

Also, where would this "big prize" come from? Who would be paying for it, and who would be judging it?

[edit to add]

Yup, that train's never late.

I'll stop mentioning it when it ceases to be true.

Especially since Vix knew that it wasn't properly attributed and he just thinks it would have been something Jefferson said. Seems to me that sign is, therefore, a willful stretching of the truth, if not an outright lie.

^-.-^

[Andara Bledin]

Are you so scared by the concept of there being nothing awaiting you? Is that what causes the offence?

I'm not sure how the possibility that there's nothing after death could be scary to anyone. If it's just "poof-gone" when you die, you'd never know, because by the time you get there, there's nothing left to be aware of it.

What may or may not be there after death has never been a motivator in my life. There are far more immediate and tangible rewards for being a decent person and doing the right thing; going to Heaven after death would be icing, not the cake itself.

^-.-^

[Andara Bledin]

Sorry for the multi-posting, but I don't want this to get lost in the shuffle.

It turns out that Vix, the man championing the atheist message was inspired to crusade for his team because the rainfall last year was so heavy, that the city chose to lose revenue on the parking meters in front of some of those displays rather than make an effort to put up and maintain signs for only the days those parking spaces were paid to be kept clear.

Article from the Santa Monica Daily Press from last January

The nativity group had paid to make metered spaces non-parking zones for weekends during the display. Due to the rains, the signs were damaged and people became confused about whether parking was allowed or not, and the city chose to eat the fees for those spaces for the rest of the weeks (a total of 6 days, I think) through the display period and keep those spaces open as opposed to wasting resources replacing the signs that the rain was destroying.

This wasn't the first year Vix had participated - he had a display then, as well, and was offered the same option to have the meters in front of his display "bagged" as well to keep it fair for all participants. While there weren't actually any meters in front of his, it being by a bus stop, he still took the credit they offered and they went ahead and bagged the closest 6 meters on his behalf.

The city changed their policy on the meters to respond to the problem, meaning that those who were awarded the spaces in the future would have to pay for the meter "rental" for the entire duration rather than opting for only high-traffic days. Vix still complained that the city should have charged the others the $384 that was lost while the meters were bagged for those extra days, although there is no indication that he offered or paid for the $144 for the meters he had them bag on his behalf.

^-.-^

[Iseeyouthere]

My example I posted earlier about the advertising company of water consumption "Use only what you need", is a similar comparision to what the Athiests are doing now with taking up the space, using very little and not letting the other religions take the rest.

It is to send a message. And their reaction to said message seems to have hit hard.


Still, Rapscallion's question still is unanswered.
Are those displays available at any other time of year for religious displays from any other faiths?
We need a source for this though.

Because... if the answer is no... then it is complete irony that you say it is spiteful.