Atheist messages displace CA park nativity scenes

[Seifer]

You're arguing the wrong argument here, Seifer. You're absolutely right that what they did was completely within the rules. But there's a difference between "legal" and "right." What they did was completely legal, and completely wrong. And that's what we're talking about here - the fact that they were utter dicks for no better reason than to spoil things for the others.

Only some were utter dicks, not all of them. Now, the utter dicks were (probably) doing it because they wanted to stick it the churches. I'd assume that's why the message came off so negative and aggressive.

Unfortunately, I heap a lot of the blame on the park owners who didn't set up a more fair system. I see the atheist's actions as a protest of sorts. They were tired of seeing nothing but religious representation in the park, so one year they got together and made sure there was no religious representation at all. I would hope that after they got the anger and spiteful revenge out of their system, they would be open to discussing a fair solution for everyone. However, when everything went to shit, the organizers apparently decided to take their ball and go home, instead of figuring out a solution so everyone was fairly represented.

The atheist groups may have gotten the ball rolling, but it's the organizers who eventually decided they didn't want to fool with it anymore and pulled the plug.

[Andara Bledin]

The anti-theist bully won.

He fucked it up for everybody else because that was his ultimate goal.

^-.-^

[Duelist925]

Only some were utter dicks, not all of them. Now, the utter dicks were (probably) doing it because they wanted to stick it the churches. I'd assume that's why the message came off so negative and aggressive.

That, or they wanted to be trollish dicks. And it came off as negative and aggressive because it was negative and aggressive.

Unfortunately, I heap a lot of the blame on the park owners who didn't set up a more fair system. I see the atheist's actions as a protest of sorts. They were tired of seeing nothing but religious representation in the park, so one year they got together and made sure there was no religious representation at all. I would hope that after they got the anger and spiteful revenge out of their system, they would be open to discussing a fair solution for everyone. However, when everything went to shit, the organizers apparently decided to take their ball and go home, instead of figuring out a solution so everyone was fairly represented.

The people who set the system up didn't think people would use it to dick around with other people. They didn't think "well, some people who're pissed off about the lack of representation before are now going to have a childish revenge by winning almost all of the spots and then putting up practically nothing!" because they assumed the people entering weren't dicks.

The atheist groups may have gotten the ball rolling, but it's the organizers who eventually decided they didn't want to fool with it anymore and pulled the plug.

To a point, this is correct, but I don't really blame them. While I wish they woulda set up a new lottery system, (Maybe with a simple "No hate speech, keep it with the holiday theme, all in good fun" kinda rule, to exclude hate groups and such, and maybe ensuring all local beliefs were represented ) I understand why they wouldn't want to put up with the possibility of another massive headache like last years.

[Hyena Dandy]

Maybe with a simple "No hate speech, keep it with the holiday theme, all in good fun" kinda rule

Judging by the reactions that I've seen to the whole thing being shut down (along the lines of "Ha, stupid Christians, can't handle the idea that someone believes something else!") we'd probably get accusations of "Oh, so you think atheism is hate speech?!"

[Panacea]

They didn't trounce on anybody's rights. They exploited a system to send a message. As I've said on this thread many times, city/public property is not the place for religious messages, no matter how well-meaning or traditional. Also, the jerks didn't ruin anything. The city realized that to be completely fair and unbiased might open the spaces up to hate groups and other undesirables, so they ended the tradition.

The city could have instituted rules to prevent that, they just found it easier not to.

The atheists sent a message all right: that they're asshats, more interested in ruining other people's fun to push their own agenda, than engage in productive dialouge.

Generally, I would agree that public spaces should not be used to promote religion. However, there is no reason not to use public spaces to celebrate holidays as long as all religions are allowed to do the same; which includes atheists promoting messages of harmony and brotherhood.

Hate speech is another matter; the city doesn't have to allow it under any circumstances. Rules could have been created to address the issue, had the city the courage.

I'm tired of religion in general. I hate hearing about it, and get the heebie-jeebies whenever I'm forced to step foot on religious property.

Why can't the cages be decorated other ways? Just make them beautiful - they don't have to be religious in any way. As long as they bring people together and make them feel warm and fuzzy, then they've fulfilled their purpose.

Given the behavior of some religious people, I can't blame you. But why should I be punished for that? Why can't the cages have a religious aspect? Why does religion have to be totally driven out of public life?

It shouldn't have to be. It just needs to be inclusive.

If that was all they were doing, there never would have been a problem in the first place. They set up an array of shills to bid for them, in order to maximize the number of spaces they can get. The rest of the bidders, who were doing it honestly, got shafted on it.

When this story came up last year I wasn't too sympathetic to the organizers. Their own system got used against them, and I didn't have a problem with that. Still don't, even though the atheists involved were and still are dicks who ruined a good time for everyone else by not taking advantage to send a positive message about their beliefs.

The problem wasn't the message that the Atheist organization was sending in the spaces they used. It was that they used their "speech" to stifle the "speech" of other organizations in using a limited public resource. If they had released the spaces that they won and didn't use (I seem to recall that they ended up using 3 of the 18 lots that they won?), there wouldn't have been a problem. Heck, if they'd released most of the spaces, and reserved a few to show a "null message," there wouldn't have been a problem.

I agree completely, and this is why the atheists were asshats about the whole thing.

Ultimately, the underlying problem was that one actor acted in bad faith, in order to stifle the people they oppose. That's pretty much the very opposite of "free speech."

Exactly.

Judging by the reactions that I've seen to the whole thing being shut down (along the lines of "Ha, stupid Christians, can't handle the idea that someone believes something else!") we'd probably get accusations of "Oh, so you think atheism is hate speech?!"

Well, when you're purpose is to force all aspects of faith out of the public eye, what else would you call it?

[AdminAssistant]

There's no reason the city can't use the spaces itself to set up a lovely seasonal display with lights, snowmen, snowflakes, etc. Heck, use it all year round, decorate it for each season. But leave the menorahs and Baby Jesuses to the religious institutions. Let them set up manger scenes and stars and crosses in their own front yards.

There are certainly some atheists who want to push religion out of the public eye. But when you see how much power religion (Christianity in particular) has in this country, who can blame us? I am sick and tired of groups using God to disguise their own racism and misogyny. Using God as an excuse to pass laws to perpetuate their own bullshit. I'm sick of Christians pretending that the only way to a moral life is through God. I'm sick of Zionists waving off terrorism because it's *their* Holy Land. I'm sick of the rampant abuse of women in Muslim countries being tolerated by Western neighbors because "it's their culture." Damn fucking right I want religion out of the public eye. The sooner, the better.

[Panacea]

There are certainly some atheists who want to push religion out of the public eye. But when you see how much power religion (Christianity in particular) has in this country, who can blame us? I am sick and tired of groups using God to disguise their own racism and misogyny. Using God as an excuse to pass laws to perpetuate their own bullshit. I'm sick of Christians pretending that the only way to a moral life is through God. I'm sick of Zionists waving off terrorism because it's *their* Holy Land. I'm sick of the rampant abuse of women in Muslim countries being tolerated by Western neighbors because "it's their culture." Damn fucking right I want religion out of the public eye. The sooner, the better.

Well, guess what? It's not going anywhere. Because the Constitution gives me the right to practice my faith in public if I should so choose to.

I actually don't have a problem with generic holiday decorations in public buildings. I definitely don't want the 10 Commandments in courthouses. But I shouldn't be restricted from celebrating my faith because YOU have a problem with it.

Try to separate the faith from those who abuse it. When you punish the faith for those people, you punish everyone else along with them. That's not fair.

And Christians don't pretend the only way to live a moral life is through God. We believe it. That doesn't mean we believe no one else can be moral. But there is so much more to it than that, and that's the part you are not seeing, because all you see is anger.

[Rapscallion]

As an atheist, I generally don't have any issue with someone practicing their religion, depending on what that means.

Go to church on a Sunday? Fine, no issue for me. Arrange food banks? Rather laudable, though I'd prefer it if it was for reasons of it being the right thing to do.

Start telling others not of that faith how to behave (no birth control etc) and not pay taxes for the privelege? The recent election over there is probably the best example of how the rank and file decent religious people are being drowned out by the religious hardliners.

If the moderates are trying to shout down the hardliners, they need to do a better job of it. I can say honestly I've never seen any mention of people trying to stop the lunatics. It might happen, it might be the media concentrating on the fringe, but everything I've seen shows that it's accepted.

And Christians don't pretend the only way to live a moral life is through God. We believe it. That doesn't mean we believe no one else can be moral. But there is so much more to it than that, and that's the part you are not seeing, because all you see is anger.

There are christians and there are christians. Not all are like you.

Rapscallion

[crashhelmet]

There are christians and there are christians. Not all are like you.

Rapscallion

Just as there are Atheists and there are Anti-Theists. Just as the Theists have radicals in their own faiths that insist on treating others like shit because they don't believe the same thing, Atheists have their own similar groups.

[Ghel]

Well, guess what? It's not going anywhere. Because the Constitution gives me the right to practice my faith in public if I should so choose to.

Right. But the Constitution does NOT give governmental entities the right to practice faith or religion of any kind. In fact, it forbids it.

[Seifer]

Given the behavior of some religious people, I can't blame you. But why should I be punished for that? Why can't the cages have a religious aspect? Why does religion have to be totally driven out of public life?

As long as the cages are rented to private vendors, then fine. Decorate them religiously. As you said, it's a problem when religion gets mixed up with certain aspects of the public, like in government buildings such as courthouses.

Then again, there are some people who don't see a problem with that, either. I had one person tell me that atheists should just "shut up" and realize that they're still getting a fair trial even if there are religious images all over the courthouse. Yeah, I feel really confident when the people in charge of my fate think I'm a sinning heathen who's going to burn in hell. (This is the kind of stuff that feeds my knee-jerk reaction to hate anything religious - I'm trying to work on it, though.)

[Hyena Dandy]

Right. But the Constitution does NOT give governmental entities the right to practice faith or religion of any kind. In fact, it forbids it.

And a government entity was not in this case, so what's your point?

There are christians and there are christians. Not all are like you.

And not all atheists are fine with any religion being in public. I've had very unpleasant arguments about whether or not I should be allowed to wear a cross in public.

So there's people like that, and there's people who aren't like that. Once a group passes about fifty members or so, there's going to be assholes and extremists.

If the moderates are trying to shout down the hardliners, they need to do a better job of it.

If you have any ideas, please let me know. >_<

The idea of Christian = Religious Right is so prevalent that I've seen Rick Santorum on a list of religious organizations.

[Rapscallion]

If you have any ideas, please let me know. >_<

Well, I'd be careful about telling them that they're wrong. You're automatically a satanist if you do that.

Rapscallion

[Hyena Dandy]

Well, I'd be careful about telling them that they're wrong. You're automatically a satanist if you do that.

Ha-ha. No. Seriously. What are we supposed to do to meet the standards of 'Moderates need to try harder?'

Because I see that a lot, and I'd like to know what I'm supposed to be doing differently.

[Rapscallion]

That's actually a good question. From what I understand, the stuff they use to justify their hate is in the same text as that used by moderate christians to justify their actions.

Awkward.

Rapscallion