Hindu woman dies after being denied an abortion because "this is a Catholic country"

[Duelist925]

I don't get it. Why would a Catholic hospital object to removing a fetus that's already dead?

There was still a heartbeat. While it wasn't dead, however, there was pretty much no chance of it being viable--it was going to die no matter what.

[Aethian]

I was technically a living abortion being born 12 weeks early. It's just they were able to keep me alive even tho one nurse had to be kept away from Mom and I because of some stupid notion.

[Racket_Man]

An update

http://news.msn.com/world/irish-gove...ving-abortions

Irish lawmakers consider abortion for life saving purposes

[Rapscallion]

An update

http://news.msn.com/world/irish-gove...ving-abortions

Irish lawmakers consider abortion for life saving purposes

From what Static said earlier, it's apparently already legal if the mother is in jeapardy?

Rapscallion

[s_stabeler]

it's in legal limbo, actually. Courts have said it's got to be legal in the case of mother's health, but the Oireachtas hasn't yet actualyl specifically amended the laws.

[AmbrosiaWriter]

it's in legal limbo, actually. Courts have said it's got to be legal in the case of mother's health, but the Oireachtas hasn't yet actualyl specifically amended the laws.

The problem isn't whether or not it's legal though. The doctors didn't say "It's illegal" to the mother when she asked for an abortion to save her life. They said This is a Catholic country. Them changing the law isn't going to change people's personal morals. The next mum is going to come around, needing an abortion to save her life, and they can still say This is a Catholic country/I'm Catholic so no abortion for you.

Unless they make it illegal to not give an abortion when the mother's life is on the line, I don't know if making abortion to save the mother's life legal will change anything.

[Ginger Tea]

There's this place called Northern Ireland, I'm sure people living in the Republic of Ireland have heard of it, push comes to shove, get the train.

[SongsOfDragons]

AFAIK Northern Ireland isn't much help either in that regard. The reports keep saying women have to get a ferry/plane to Britain to have it done.

[Blue Ginger]

Yep, Northern Ireland is like the rest of Ireland in this area. Too many docs refusing on moral/religious grounds.

It's a bit hard to just jump on the ferry, or a plane, if you are in this poor woman's situation.

As much as I loved my year in Dublin, Ireland is a bit backwards in some regards.

I was even warned that it can sometimes be difficult to get the pill. I took 18 months worth with me just in case.

Hell, morning peak hour used to happen 6 days a week. It was worse on a Sunday morning than during the week.

[s_stabeler]

The problem isn't whether or not it's legal though. The doctors didn't say "It's illegal" to the mother when she asked for an abortion to save her life. They said This is a Catholic country. Them changing the law isn't going to change people's personal morals. The next mum is going to come around, needing an abortion to save her life, and they can still say This is a Catholic country/I'm Catholic so no abortion for you.

Unless they make it illegal to not give an abortion when the mother's life is on the line, I don't know if making abortion to save the mother's life legal will change anything.

I was answering Rapscallion. I happen to agree with you, though.

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[AmbrosiaWriter]

*tilts head very slowly to the side.*

So creating legislature that makes it legal to save a mother's life, so that she may continue to either try for another baby or decide to adopt instead... is the first step toward "a culture of death."

*keels over. Birdies birdies birdies.*

[KabeRinnaul]

Hokay, first things first. As I always remind everyone, I'm agnostic and in no way agree with the actions taken by the doctors here (I think they're as despicable as everyone else), but I do want to try and help explain the mindset that these people have.

So creating legislature that makes it legal to save a mother's life, so that she may continue to either try for another baby or decide to adopt instead... is the first step toward "a culture of death."

The "culture of death" and "culture of life" are big things for Catholics. The culture of death is essentially one that does not accept the sanctity of life, and is willing to prevent or end a life, whereas the culture of life holds that life is sacred and should be protected in all it's forms. Because they believe that life begins at conception, that means a fetus falls under that category as well, and is exactly as deserving of protection as anyone else. Essentially, for someone who follows this belief system, abortion is infanticide.

Anyway, exactly how the Culture of Life/Death is interpreted depends on how liberal or conservative a particular Catholic is. The conservative end tends to be main-line conservative (American conservative, anyway - actually, please remember that most of my experience is with American Catholics, and things may be a bit different elsewhere) - favors capital punishment, opposes gay marriage, opposes all forms of contraception and abortion. As you get more liberal, you get those who oppose the death penalty, think the Church could stand to modernize it's views on marriage and gender equality, and would be just as horrified as anyone else at the events here - I know a local priest who actually fits on this end.

(That many Catholics who oppose birth control also oppose welfare is because social conservatism and fiscal conservatism often go hand-in-hand. Father John is the liberal exception to this one, too - he holds that the Church has a duty to help care for the children it says must be brought into the world.)

But back to abortion. The reason it's considered wrong to abort is because, like I said, they consider it infanticide. The dilemma you face when the abortion is to save the life of the mother is that in their system of ethics, an evil action taken to bring about a good result remains an evil action; essentially, the end never justifies the means. Now, there is a bit of dogma in place that makes some allowances for questionable actions, known as the Doctrine of Double Effect. It's based on the writings of St. Thomas Aquinas, and essentially amounts to this: If the action is morally neutral, and the intended result is good, then the action may be considered good even if it results in some evil as well. His favored example was self-defense; murder is wrong, but if you should accidentally kill an assailant in the course of defending your own life, you have not sinned.

Some believe that the doctrine of double effect can be applied to cases like this, but the usual response is that the action to be taken - abortion - is still an evil act, and thus it doesn't qualify. And the logic present there exposes the point where the Church's ethics has problems. It basically says that if you perform an abortion, you've murdered a child to save the mother, and that's all on you. If you don't and the mother dies, then that was unfortunate, but it was a natural death and you can't fault anyone for that.

[TheHuckster]

favors capital punishment, opposes gay marriage, opposes all forms of contraception and abortion.

It should be noted that the official stance by the Vatican opposes capital punishment.