Hindu woman dies after being denied an abortion because "this is a Catholic country"

[wolfie]

Some believe that the doctrine of double effect can be applied to cases like this, but the usual response is that the action to be taken - abortion - is still an evil act, and thus it doesn't qualify. And the logic present there exposes the point where the Church's ethics has problems. It basically says that if you perform an abortion, you've murdered a child to save the mother, and that's all on you. If you don't and the mother dies, then that was unfortunate, but it was a natural death and you can't fault anyone for that.

But IIRC, in this case the mother had ALREADY miscarried (i.e. probability of continuing pregnancy to term is zero), and leaving the situation alone WILL (and did) result in dead mother and dead baby.

If the hospital had performed an early delivery (for reasons you stated in quote above, doctor treats it as an extreme premature delivery rather than an induced abortion), one of the following will happen:
- Fetus is not viable, dies. Mother is already septic, can't be helped, dies. No better off (and no worse off) than with no intervention. "feces occur".
- By some miracle, NICU is able to save the baby (although it'll probably have serious health problems throughout life). Mother already septic.
- Fetus is not viable, mother lives
- NICU saves baby, mother lives

By treating this as a case of an emergency complication of pregnancy (fetus has been cut off from its "life support system", will die without intervention) rather than an induced abortion, the worst case (doctor is unable to save either the pre-term baby or the mother) is the same as the inevitable result of non-intervention. On the other hand, there is an extremely high probability that one person (most likely the mother) will be saved. Doctrine of Double Effect should apply in this case.

It's all how you look at it - just like I advise company drivers to NOT report a failed air conditioner (it's always the "dehumidifier for windshield defogger" that failed, so it's a safety-related item rather than a driver comfort item).

[KabeRinnaul]

The argument against applying DDE to this case is the same as always - that abortion is, regardless of circumstances, murder.

The problem arises when you combine a refusal to consider extenuating circumstances and ethics that emphasize action over consequence, particularly when the "regardless of circumstances" aspect has been taken to an absurd extreme.

The logic goes like this (again, not saying I agree, just it's there):

1. To save the mother, I'd have to murder the child.
2. To let the mother and child die, I'd be allowing events to follow their natural course, however tragic that may be.
3. It's better to allow nature to take it's unfortunate course than to try to change things by murdering a child.

[HYHYBT]

Choosing not to act is an action in itself. One of the things I like about the Episcopal churches I've been to (which I mention only as a source) is the recitation during the service of the "Prayers of the People." Specifically relevant: "forgive us for what we have done and for what we have left undone." Because they amount to the same thing.

[Andara Bledin]

Specifically relevant: "forgive us for what we have done and for what we have left undone." Because they amount to the same thing.

This.

Choosing not to act to save one life despite the loss of the other and letting both die as a result when you have the power, ability, and opportunity to do so is no less evil than watching someone drown when you could have pulled them to safety.

The focus on the unborn to the exclusion of the already-living is really twisted.

^-.-^

[draco664]

It should be noted that the official stance by the Vatican opposes capital punishment.

Unless of course, you're a child rape victim pregnant with twins your body is physically incapable of carrying to term. In that case, the Catholic Church is quite happy for you to die for your "crimes".

[KabeRinnaul]

Unless of course, you're a child rape victim pregnant with twins your body is physically incapable of carrying to term. In that case, the Catholic Church is quite happy for you to die for your "crimes".

That had nothing to do with punishing the girl, and was instead another failure of the logic I pointed out already. It still basically boils down to "You can't murder Alice to save Bob's life, even if Alice's life depends on Bob's."

Also, in her case, the abortion was performed and the girl, to my knowledge, has survived. The ridiculousness came later, when the church excommunicated everyone involved. They thought a c-section was a better option than an abortion.

[Andara Bledin]

It still basically boils down to "You can't murder Alice to save Bob's life, even if Alice's life depends on Bob's."

It still amounts to murder through inaction.

They can try to say it was "god's will" that they both die, but in that case, then any surgery is against god's will, not just a life-preserving abortion.

^-.-^

[wolfie]

Choosing not to act is an action in itself. One of the things I like about the Episcopal churches I've been to (which I mention only as a source) is the recitation during the service of the "Prayers of the People." Specifically relevant: "forgive us for what we have done and for what we have left undone." Because they amount to the same thing.

Even secular literature recognizes that. It's no accident that Asimov's First Law of Robotics is "No robot shall harm a human, or through inaction allow a human to be harmed". One of his stories deals with the problems that happen when a batch of robots has a modified First Law that leaves out the bit about inaction.

[HYHYBT]

Of course. But the Catholic church, at least in this sort of case, *doesn't* recognize that.

(It of course gets problematic when there are multiple, mutually exclusive things to do...)

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[Nekojin]

The bishops of Ireland have condemned the legislation as "morally unacceptable", "a breach of the principle of religious freedom" and claimed that politicians have a “solemn duty” to oppose abortion.

The "religious freedom" to dictate how others live and die is a particularly Orwellian bit of doublespeak. Good going, bishops.

[draco664]

The "religious freedom" to dictate how others live and die is a particularly Orwellian bit of doublespeak. Good going, bishops.

What's wrong with that? The bishops all agree that everyone has the right to freely worship Christ in the Catholic faith.

[Panacea]

The bishops of Ireland have condemned the legislation as "morally unacceptable", "a breach of the principle of religious freedom" and claimed that politicians have a “solemn duty” to oppose abortion.

This makes me nuts.

Following Christ has to be a choice. If the law makes your choices for you, then you are not following Christ.

I really wish the Church would quit trying to legislate and instead give people options and support for continuing a pregnancy.

[fireheart17]

The bishops of Ireland have condemned the legislation as "morally unacceptable", "a breach of the principle of religious freedom" and claimed that politicians have a “solemn duty” to oppose abortion.

You know, I have NO idea how allowing abortions is a breach of religious freedom.

I thought religious freedom meant that a) people were free to follow their own beliefs and be guided by them in making decisions and that b) laws were also made to stop one religion from holding more influence over the state than another.

if they're referring to the fact that Catholics might suddenly decide to get abortions....you know, not to disparage on how devout people are, but I would imagine that a number of Catholics around the world are card-carrying ones. They attend say christmas and easter mass and consider that all they have to do to adopt the "Catholic" moniker. They might not follow the remaining rules and instead pick and choose whatever's convenient WHENEVER it's convenient.

The "true" Catholics (that is, those who don't use religion as an excuse to be a jerk or a bitch) would still not get abortions.

The bishops are fine to believe what they want to believe, but they shouldn't be forcing it down the throats of those who need them. (and yes, there are times when abortion is genuinely needed)

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