The allowing of ceremonial knives on school grounds

[fireheart17]

http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/n...-1226542351230

So basically the Sikh population wants to carry their ceremonial knives (kirpans) into schools. Your thoughts?

[SongsOfDragons]

AFAIK most kirpans are dull things bolted into their sheaths, under 3 inches long. You'd probably be better off using a ruler or a pencil as a weapon.

[wolfie]

Has been allowed in Canada for many years, since religious freedom trumps public safety (there have been cases where Sikhs have drawn their Kirpans in schoolyard fights, even though the circumstances under which they're allowed to carry them REQUIRE that they be secured in such a manner that they can't be removed from their sheaths.

I'm waiting for The Church Of Jesus Christ (Crusader) to spring up, with a requirement that its members carry a cross-hilted sword. Unfortunately, the mindset most likely to have this happen is concentrated in Alberta, while the people most able to justify it in a court challenge are in Quebec, and Quebec and Alberta don't get along very well.

Why would Quebec be able to justify it better than Alberta? Simple - Quebec is francophone, and the French version of our national anthem contains the lines "Quant ton bras sait porter l'epee, il sait porter la croix", which translates literally as "when your arm knows how to carry the sword, it knows how to carry the cross". Basically, the French version of our national anthem equates the carrying of (edged) weapons with sincerity of belief, so it's discrimination to allow one religious group (Sikhs) to carry edged weapons while banning another (Christians) from doing the same.

[crashhelmet]

When I was teaching in the mid-to-late 90's, there was an issue that arose with one of our Sikh students being suspended, facing expulsion, for bringing theirs to school. After much debate, it stood with just the suspension and the warning to never bring it again. There were a few attempts to make it legal in California, going as far as AB504 being passed by the State Assembly in 2009. Unfortunately, it was vetoed by Schwarzenegger.

While trying to find an article about that particular incident, I found this.

Sikhs allowed to carry daggers at Calif. school

[fireheart17]

A bit of googling reveals that New York (IIRC) had a ruling that the kirpans were to be kept in the sheaths and then glued or otherwise covered up so that they were impossible to draw.

[Fire_on_High]

I could have sworn I remember reading somewhere that given the necessity of rendering a kirpan nonfunctional to be legal, that at least one Sikh spiritual leader (can't remember if they're gurus or something else and CBA to look it up) had stated that a symbolic kirpan pendant was considered acceptable.

[Nyoibo]

If they're devout enough that they're going to carry a Kirpan and the other trappings then they know that they'll get hell for drawing it not just from the school but religeously as well, it's only supposed to be drawn to defend others or in extreme cases for self defence.

[fireheart17]

If they're devout enough that they're going to carry a Kirpan and the other trappings then they know that they'll get hell for drawing it not just from the school but religeously as well, it's only supposed to be drawn to defend others or in extreme cases for self defence.

And the best part is, you can't suddenly buy a Kirpan and claim to be a Sikh for a few reasons...

1)like others have said, the Kirpan can be symbolic. I suspect that the gurdwaras and other suppliers of kirpans down here have been selling symbolic swords rather than real ones

2) the Kirpan is one of what is known as the five k's. the other four stand for uncut hair, a wooden comb used to keep the hair in place, a symbolic bangle and a set of special undergarments. You need to wearing or carrying all of these before you can join the Khalsa.

[Signmaker]

Having grown up with pocket knives being a normal item carried from middle school on, my view may be a little skewed, but I dont see why it shouldnt be allowed.

Of the Sihks I have met, all but a scant few have carried impractical kripans. Most have ranged from extremely blunted knives (most butter knives have more edge), to tiny decorative items, being just a handle fused to an empty sheath. Not exactly a scary weapon innapropriate for the environment.

Now, the guy with the practical kripan, that was a thing of beauty. High carbon blade with a shaving sharp scandi grind, micarta handles with brass hardware, and a formed kydex sheath. This same individual also had a small pewter kripan pendant inlaid into the grip panel of his 1911. We got along well.

[fireheart17]

Having grown up with pocket knives being a normal item carried from middle school on, my view may be a little skewed, but I dont see why it shouldnt be allowed.

Of the Sihks I have met, all but a scant few have carried impractical kripans. Most have ranged from extremely blunted knives (most butter knives have more edge), to tiny decorative items, being just a handle fused to an empty sheath. Not exactly a scary weapon innapropriate for the environment.

No, your view isn't entirely skewed. Outdoor ed programs down here are fairly common in high schools, so a student having access to a knife in that case is not unusual.

As for the impractical kirpan, the loudest commenters unfortunately tend to be the uneducated who believe that if a kid so much LOOKS at a knife, they're going to suddenly become a criminal.

Or alternately they're of the "If the average citizen can't have it, then nobody can" thing.

[s_stabeler]

Well, yeah, you do get dumbasses who call for the removal of anything that even looks like a knife in schools. I can think of several reasons they have clearly not been listened to: 1. school meals. I'm pretty sure the average school meal has a knife with it so you can cut up food. ( I may be wrong, but in the UK, school meals are a hot meal by statute, so a knife would be nessecary) 2. Science classes. specifically, dissecting things. uses a scalpel.

so in short, the rabid people aren't being listened to, so there's not really any need to worry on that front.

in all seriousness, though, I would say that any ceremonial knife brought onto school grounds should at the very least be blunted to uselessness. (preferably rounded edge) any knife that is basically only a hilt is fine.

[TheHuckster]

Well, yeah, you do get dumbasses who call for the removal of anything that even looks like a knife in schools. I can think of several reasons they have clearly not been listened to: 1. school meals. I'm pretty sure the average school meal has a knife with it so you can cut up food. ( I may be wrong, but in the UK, school meals are a hot meal by statute, so a knife would be nessecary) 2. Science classes. specifically, dissecting things. uses a scalpel.

In my observations a lot of the unnecessarily strict rules against anything resembling weapons are more in an elementary school setting where kids are more prone to play with their food and bring toys to class anyway... usually a "hot meal" in elementary school, even back when I was attending in the late 80s and early 90s, was something you would still not cut with a knife (e.g. pizza, meatball subs, or spaghetti) or could be cut with a plastic knife, and any science or art class that would require a knife would either be prohibited until a later grade like junior high/high school or only demonstrated by the teacher without class participation.

In high school, things are a bit more complicated. If you take away every single possible thing that could be used as a weapon, you'd have to take away fencing, baseball, some science projects, many art projects, and other vital school curriculums that simply need to be taught. People are already wary of cutting school programs (especially in sports and art), so I think that's why those kinds of things are not as prohibitive in high school. Of course, this is ironic, considering most violence involving guns or knives occur in high school (albeit not during those classes that have access to such weapons).

...of course, in elementary school it's a different story because some parents are all "OMG, my child got hurt by scissors in art class! How could you possibly have allowed these 8 year olds to use them?!" so principles feel more compelled to institute stupid policies to prevent that sort of thing.

[Signmaker]

As for the impractical kirpan, the loudest commenters unfortunately tend to be the uneducated...

My god you're right. There is actually a commentor there claiming that even a completely blunt kripan is a weapon. No, it's a spatula, at best a short metal stick. A hard bound textbook or metal ruler would do worse damage.

But a kid was stabbed four years ago, so we need a crackdown on knives and things that look like knives. Reactionary illogical fear.

[gremcint]

I'm not comfortable with it. Yes religious symbols worn by the student should be allowed but they are usually not weapons. Forgetting the strawman arguements of other religions deciding to carry swords and such, here are some questions:

1. is everyone allowed to have them?
2. are you allowed to inspect them to make sure they have not been sharpened?


And even so no, sharp or blunt it is a knife, even if its small. remember the kid stabbed to death with the tiny little jackknife? it doesn't take much.

[Andara Bledin]

If you really want to stab a person, a sharpened pencil is an excellent weapon. Pens are pretty nasty, too.