Gay is wrong, but not this other stuff?

[anriana]

New Testament verse on homosexuality:

Romans 1:26-27 (New International Version)

26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.


So, in the Biblical view, it's no longer an abomination! Instead it's an unnatural perversion.

Other than hypocracy I think the big thing is that people don't truly understand their religion. People don't understand that EVERYONE is a sinner... sinning is part of everyday life. What they don't understand is that their religion teaches that they can be forgiven of those sins, that God loves us despite the sin, much as parents love their children no matter what the child does.

My understanding has always been: adultery (just as an example) is a sin. Someone who commits adultery then repents of it and returns to fidelity is a sinner, but is someone who recognizes that their sinful actions are wrong and tries to overcome them. In this viewpoint, engaging in homosexual acts is a sin as well. Someone who engages in them, repents, and embraces heterosexuality is trying to do the right thing and avoid sin as well. Someone who doesn't repent and continually engages in same sex acts is deliberately sinning over and over. God might still love repeat offenders (good luck every getting one of them to say that though) but he certainly hates their repeated sinning.

I would tend to agree.

Arguments about what is "true" Christianity, or "true" Islam, or "true" any religion are a bit pointless, no? There's no black-and-white truth involved. It's all faith based. It's whatever people believe it is.

Really that depends on how you define "true." I'll always consider "true" Christianity to be that which is laid forth in the Bible, true Islam what is laid forth in the Koran, etc. That doesn't mean people who worship Jesus on toast aren't Christians persay, they just aren't "true" Christians.

Similar to the origin of not mixing meat and dairy was that a popular Canaanite dish was "lamb cooked in the milk of its mother". In this case, it was to ensure that the message that the bond between mother and child should not be made a mockery of in this manner.

I don't get that. It's not okay to "mock the bond" between mother and child but it's okay to rip the child away from the mother before it is weaned and kill it and eat it?

[Pedersen]

Really that depends on how you define "true." I'll always consider "true" Christianity to be that which is laid forth in the Bible, true Islam what is laid forth in the Koran, etc. That doesn't mean people who worship Jesus on toast aren't Christians persay, they just aren't "true" Christians.

By that definition, I would posit that no such thing as a "true" Christian exists today, since God approves of slavery (as does Jesus, the same page shows it), is a misogynist (and, again, so was Jesus), demands animal sacrifice (and, if you think about it, God goes beyond this to demanding a human sacrifice in the form of Jesus to allow any of the creations that He made into heaven), and is a baby killer (by the millions, in fact).

Since no current Christian agrees with (and follows) all of these tenets, I'm going to have to state that there are no "true" Christians today.

[Slytovhand]

per Mel Brooks?

from what i remember from reading the Pentateuch (first 5 books of the bible) many many commandments were given, most of the time in groups of ten.

Well - that too

But, from Exodus 20:1-... further along. The 10 Commandments stop at :13, but the actual passage of rules and laws laid down continues on.. no graven images, no worked stone temples, always wear a head covering, etc etc....

In my search to find this, I found 613 Commandments has been mentioned.. but scattered throughout the Pentateuch.. Exodus, Deuteronomy, etc. (makes the OP more relevant!) How come we now have all these images around, yet God has expressly forbid them??? Someone's going to hell!

[AFPheonix]

By that definition, I would posit that no such thing as a "true" Christian exists today, since God approves of slavery (as does Jesus, the same page shows it), is a misogynist (and, again, so was Jesus), demands animal sacrifice (and, if you think about it, God goes beyond this to demanding a human sacrifice in the form of Jesus to allow any of the creations that He made into heaven), and is a baby killer (by the millions, in fact).

Since no current Christian agrees with (and follows) all of these tenets, I'm going to have to state that there are no "true" Christians today.

Further, many Christian books have a claim on the "true christianity" label since they follow some section of the bible to the letter. For example, the denomination I grew up in, the Plymouth Brethren, follow the example of the Acts church exactly. They have the same number of elders, they have the same type of services, women have to be quiet and cover their heads while in service, blah blah blah.
However,7th Day Adventists consider all other denominations to be heretics because they don't honor the "true" sabbath, Saturday.

[Wingates_Hellsing]

Being a "True" christian seems to be the root of all contention between the factions. Everyone thinks that they are perfect and everyone else is doomed to burn in hell and blah blah blah.

There really isn't any such thing as a "True" anything. There are very few situations in which you can truly indulge in your world view and nothing else.

If we accept that the work of man (that's humans by the way, but man has just the one syllables) as natural, we must also accept that which has occurred on any significant scale as natural as well. If it's wrong or not is a different issue. It's totally natural to have thoughts of violence, but it's not wrong unless you act upon them. To me, nothing should be criminal unless you harm someone else. Homosexuality hasn't hurt anyone except for those who handles themselves poorly or who were hurt by the people who hated them.

And I really am not in the mood to hear the "But it's a sin so they're hurting themselves" spiel. Since the definition of sin in any form is as varied as the people who make it.

I'm going to go listen to Mann Gegen Mann now and think about how many times I'd like to visit bodily harm on that Westboro nut.

Ich bin der Alptraum aller Vater

[Rapscallion]

True.

Enlightened.

Justified.

All the above and more simply mean 'agrees with me'.

Not just about the thread in hand, but about anything.

Rapscallion

[RecoveringKinkoid]

I got nothing for you, Mysty, I frequently wonder the same thing myself.

I think it's because it's human nature to have at least one group you can view as "other", or less than human, so they can feel superior to someone. Hating gays is sort of the last bastion of the bigot who doens't want to admit he's a bigot.

Unless I'm wrong, Jesus was interestingly silent on the subject. He hung out with everyone and didn't seem to have any groups that it was okay to dehumanize.

But then, as my friend and priest Father Edwards likes to say, "It's much easier to worship Christ as a God than it is to actually follow his teachings."

Father Edwards is a very, very wise and beautiful man.

[Pedersen]

Unless I'm wrong, Jesus was interestingly silent on the subject. He hung out with everyone and didn't seem to have any groups that it was okay to dehumanize.

Actually, RK, this time you are wrong. At the barest minimum, he was okay with slavery. He could also easily be accused of being a misogynist, okay with human sacrifice (since he allowed himself to be sacrificed so that God would allow humans into heaven), and (if you agree that Jesus is God, one and the same) is even a pretty prolific baby killer. See my post from above that I quoted below. It's got links to back up all of that.

By that definition, I would posit that no such thing as a "true" Christian exists today, since God approves of slavery (as does Jesus, the same page shows it), is a misogynist (and, again, so was Jesus), demands animal sacrifice (and, if you think about it, God goes beyond this to demanding a human sacrifice in the form of Jesus to allow any of the creations that He made into heaven), and is a baby killer (by the millions, in fact).

Since no current Christian agrees with (and follows) all of these tenets, I'm going to have to state that there are no "true" Christians today.

Ya know... Maybe it's time to start a thread about this...

[RecoveringKinkoid]

Well, I'm not really feeling your points, here, Pedersen, but that's fine. I don't want to turn this thread into a theology debate about the divinity of Christ or whatever. I see what you are saying, though.

I'm just saying I don't recall any biblical stories of Jesus himself saying or doing anything anti-gay. I'm not speaking about what the various other writers of the New Testament wrote, or even the apparent opinions of various apostles.

But then, I'm Episcopalean and do not believe in the literalism of the Bible. I'll just leave it at that, at least for this thread.

[fireheart17]

as far as the whole view on whether gay is wrong or not, I keep jumping forward to "Red hot Catholic Love" from South Park.

For the unfamiliar, people are getting tired of the sexual abuse scandals in the Catholic Church and become atheists. father Maxi tries to settle this by heading to the Vatican and changing the Holy Document of Vatican Law but not only is it nowhere to be found, but when he DOES find it, the Queen Spider (??) says it can't be changed. The line at the end pretty much sums up my views.

This... book[The Bible]. You see, these are just stories. Stories that are meant to help people in the right direction. Love your neighbor. Be a good person. That's it! And when you start turning the stories into literal translations of hierarchies and power, well... Well, you end up with this. People are losing faith because they don't see how what you've turned the religion into applies to them! They've lost touch with any idea of any kind of religion, and when they have no mythology to try and live their lives by, well, they just start spewing a bunch of crap out of their mouths!

Too many people literally take them as rules, rather than ideas.

[radiocerk]

I'm infamous for asking people "which set?" when they mention the 10 commandments. There were two of them: the smashed set, and the new set. The smashed set are the ones most people are familiar.

Many things that are at least heavily hinted at in the Bible have been accepted by almost every modern priest to be silly and wrong: the sun revolving the earth, the earth being a flat disk, the earth being 6000 years old, bats are birds, etc.

I've met extremely religious (Christian) people with tattoos, who have been divorced, and remarried, who have shaved their heads, and I'm sure there are even those who have had sex with, or as, a menstruating woman. These are all no-nos according to Leviticus. No one believes that the disabled shouldn't be allowed into church anymore. Why? Because everyone knows these things are stupid.

I don't know why everyone nuts up about gay people. I've never known a man to lie with man as if with woman. I don't think it's possible. Is it also an abomination for a woman to lie with a man as if she were a man (anal sex with a female)? I just wonder.

And let's not even get started on what Jeremiah 10 says about "Christmas" trees. Let's let us pagans keep our own damned symbols, hmm? I'll be coming for those Easter eggs and bunnies later.

[RecoveringKinkoid]

I know, I feel the same way. Why is "gay" the big deal breaker?

Guess what? I'm a Christian and I love to eat....shellfish! And I'm pretty sure I have some mixed fiber blouses hanging in the closet.

Oh, I have, on occasion, eaten bacon.

I've eaten bacon at church. Hell, I've drunk booze at church. And no, I'm not talking communion wine. I'm talking about sucking down a good cold longneck while the oysters roasted.

Yeah. I'm pretty sure we had a pork roll that day, too. Cooked by a gay guy.

I guess I'm Damned for sure.

[guywithashovel]

This may have been mentioned earlier in this thread, but there is a verse somewhere in the New Testament that many Christians say exempts them from some of the laws in the Old Testament. That is why most Christians today have no objections to the consumption of shellfish and the other things that are forbidden in the OT.

[RecoveringKinkoid]

Yes, that is true. My belief is that Christ represents the new law, and that every single rule in the Old Testament is trumped by the law to Love Thy Neighbor As Thyself.

Most Christians don't manage following this dictate even close to 100%, including myself. (In fact, I would be as bold as to say it's probably far more of a challenge to follow this rule than, say, the laws in Leviticus or the 10 Commandments. But it's at least the goal. )

I consider the Old Testament historical backdrop.

Therefore, as for the gay thing, I am admonished to treat them as I would want to be treated myself. Nothing else matters.

Hard core fundies say homosexuality is a sin. I don't know or care if it is or not, that's not my concern. If it is, there are far worse ones out there, so I'm not sure why that one is such a deal breaker. And anyways, they are as God made them. So I rather think it's not. My concern is how I treat them.

[guywithashovel]

Hard core fundies say homosexuality is a sin. I don't know or care if it is or not, that's not my concern. If it is, there are far worse ones out there, so I'm not sure why that one is such a deal breaker. And anyways, they are as God made them. So I rather think it's not. My concern is how I treat them.

I'll freely admit that there are people who know the Bible better than I do, but there are passages in the New Testament that talk about homosexuality. It's talked about in 1st Corinthians, Romans, Jude, and I think 1st Timothy as well. How do you view those passages.

I'm asking out of curiosity more than anything else.