some things shouldn't be touched

[Flyndaran]

It's one of the rules you have to abide by if you live in a civilised society. Like not murdering each other and not eating the bodies. Cannibalism is rife in a lot of uncivilised societies; why not allow it in the Western world? You want to allow incest; so that means I should have the right to kill you and eat you if I so wish.

Is that a joke?
Two consenting adults engaging in pleasurable activities that don't affect anyone else is the same as murder?

[Nyoibo]

You want to allow incest; so that means I should have the right to kill you and eat you if I so wish.

No, not the same, not even anywhere near the same.

[Arcade Man D]

The reason for laws against incest isn't just about "icky", but because most incestuous relationships would have a huge power-gap that would be rife for abuse.

[Flyndaran]

The reason for laws against incest isn't just about "icky", but because most incestuous relationships would have a huge power-gap that would be rife for abuse.

So have regular marriages for the vast span of human history, so lets just abolish the whole thing, right?
Since we are talking about adults, how about if we give them the right to choose their own partners?

[Lace Neil Singer]

Is that a joke?
Two consenting adults engaging in pleasurable activities that don't affect anyone else is the same as murder?

Well, you seem to be throwing in arguments for every single example of unethical behaviour imaginable, so why can't I? True, I was being facetious, but you seem to be arguing for the sake of arguing, so I don't see why I can't do likewise.

If you want to live on a tiny island somewhere and screw your relations senseless, then fine; go ahead. But while you live in a civilised society, you obey the rules of that society regardless.

[Flyndaran]

Well, you seem to be throwing in arguments for every single example of unethical behaviour imaginable, so why can't I? True, I was being facetious, but you seem to be arguing for the sake of arguing, so I don't see why I can't do likewise.

If you want to live on a tiny island somewhere and screw your relations senseless, then fine; go ahead. But while you live in a civilised society, you obey the rules of that society regardless.

But you have not made a rational argument for why adult incest is uncivilized.
Civilized in my mind means secular and making laws based on religion or ick factor is not civilized.

[Lace Neil Singer]

So, what is your definition of civilisation? Anarchy? You haven't made a rational argument for that as of yet; and you're basically arguing for something that is genetically wrong, rather than just morally wrong. In any case, you're trying to avoid my point, which is that while you live in a group, you have the choice to either get the fuck out or obey the rules of that group at large, regardless of your own personal feelings on the matter. If everyone just did what they felt like, then it would be anarchy; and anarchy rarely provides stability.

[Nyoibo]

So, what is your definition of civilisation? Anarchy? You haven't made a rational argument for that as of yet; and you're basically arguing for something that is genetically wrong, rather than just morally wrong.

Who says it's genetically wrong? I want an example of it being genetically wrong and children resulting does not count, as has been pointed out in other threads a relationship does not have to be about having children and there have been cases of incestuous relationships having perfectly normal healthy children.

In any case, you're trying to avoid my point, which is that while you live in a group, you have the choice to either get the fuck out or obey the rules of that group at large, regardless of your own personal feelings on the matter. If everyone just did what they felt like, then it would be anarchy; and anarchy rarely provides stability.

So one assumes that you completely support the anti-gay marriage laws and tell any gay person that wants to get married to shut up or get the fuck out?

[radiocerk]

I wouldn't necessarily have a problem with two adults in a consenting incestuous relationship, as long as they have no biological children. And perhaps, that one wasn't in a position of authority over the other. IE, brother and sister is not quite as squicky as father/daughter. After all, can you really have a consensual relationship with someone you're supposed to listen to?

[Flyndaran]

If you don't want relatives marrying because they MAY produce children that have a SLIGHTLY higher than average risk of birth defects, then you MUST refuse to allow anyone with a genetic disability to procreate, or you will be a hypocrite.

[Flyndaran]

I wouldn't necessarily have a problem with two adults in a consenting incestuous relationship, as long as they have no biological children. And perhaps, that one wasn't in a position of authority over the other. IE, brother and sister is not quite as squicky as father/daughter. After all, can you really have a consensual relationship with someone you're supposed to listen to?

I'm 35. I don't obey my mother, and I don't think many other adults do either.
I may find the idea of incest icky, but there is no rational reason to make it illegal.

[Peppergirl]

And where do we draw the line at 'consensual'?

I just read an article about Mackenzie Phillips. She was defending herself for going public about what she originally termed as 'consensual incest'.

From the article, regarding incest in adults: "An older child is guilted into believing it's something they should do. There's a dynamic that alters the person's perception of what is right and wrong."

In Mackenzie's case, would it be just the drugs? Or we're there other mental issues at play?

[Boozy]

I agree with you, Flyn. There's no good reason for consensual incest to be illegal in this day and age. I understand why it once was though; birth control has not always been as widely available and effective as it is today. Because I also agree with Broom when he says that you can't compare the potentially horrific birth defects that can result from incest to, say, dwarfism. It made sense to make the sex itself illegal, since it had a higher probability of leading to pregnancy.

Today, it still makes sense to make procreating with a close relative illegal, but a consensual relationship that does not produce children harms no one.

From the article, regarding incest in adults: "An older child is guilted into believing it's something they should do. There's a dynamic that alters the person's perception of what is right and wrong."

You can say that about consensual adult sex between non-relatives, too. There are power dynamics at play in every single relationship we have as adults, even healthy ones.

At some point, the law cannot be making these judgments calls. At some point, the law must consider us adults and assume that we are able to make adult decisions. Bad things may happen to those who make decisions while in a position of vulnerability, but that can't be considered a crime. Far worse things happen when the law becomes paternalistic and starts making our decisions for us.

[Peppergirl]

At some point, the law cannot be making these judgments calls. At some point, the law must consider us adults and assume that we are able to make adult decisions. Bad things may happen to those who make decisions while in a position of vulnerability, but that can't be considered a crime. Far worse things happen when the law becomes paternalistic and starts making our decisions for us.

Agreed. Though, in her case, I'm quite sure her extremely dysfunctional upbringing and heavy drug use contributed to the situation. Would she have participated if she hadn't been so screwed up in the first placc?

[Boozy]

Would she have participated if she hadn't been so screwed up in the first placc?

Probably not. But I don't feel that the law should protect us from ourselves.