General Animal Issues

[anriana]

Partially because of this thread: http://fratching.com/showthread.php?t=1346


Partially due to an episode of Lost where Sawyer is pretending to hurt a piglet (boarlet?) and Kate gets upset with him.


And partially due to other, similar happenings.


I genuinely do not understand people who are concerned about baby animals and not adult animals, or specific adult animals and not other specific ones. I especially don't understand the Lost episode - why is it perfectly fine to hunt and eat adult boars but not okay to mess with younger boars? I can understand the logical position that the boars will weigh more and be more useful for eating purposes when they're bigger, but that doesn't explain Kate's immediate "omg Sawyer don't hurt the cute little baby!" reaction.

I also have difficulty understanding (American) people's hyperconcern with cats and dogs and not, for example, pigs. Pigs are more intelligent than dogs and are treated in horrific ways when being raised for slaughter - ways that people would protest if they were applied to dogs. This I somewhat understand: cats and dogs are seen as companion animals and pigs are seen as consumption animals. Is there anything beyond that?

Yes, I'm a Jain vegetarian with different-than-normal views on animals and animal rights. I'm not advocating those views or arguing that it's morally wrong or right to treat animals a particular way. I just want to understand the reasoning behind the different standards.

[Cat]

I dislike all animal cruelty, but I will admit, I am speciesist (is that a word?) I will put cats above most others, with the exception of myself and a few other humans.


But I do see what you mean, it does seem hypocritical. Like vegans who wear leather. (that example I have seen in a few veggie threads....they can get very interesting)

As for diet, again I chose some species over others....I don't eat mammals or fowl (except for rare occasions) but I adore seafood.


Meh, I'm sorry, I have nothing interesting to contribute....I'm too tired

[anriana]

I dislike all animal cruelty, but I will admit, I am speciesist (is that a word?) I will put cats above most others, with the exception of myself and a few other humans.

Depending on how much you trust crazy veg*ns with English, yes it is!

But I do see what you mean, it does seem hypocritical. Like vegans who wear leather. (that example I have seen in a few veggie threads....they can get very interesting)

I can only imagine how heated those get.

As for diet, again I chose some species over others....I don't eat mammals or fowl (except for rare occasions) but I adore seafood.

I assume you're using "adore" here to mean "adore eating." =p

My best friend is like you too. He says that seafood creatures are "biological machines" and aren't complex enough to merit guilt about eating. I disagree with him but I at least understand the point.

[Flyndaran]

It is not wrong to treat different animals differently. Mammals are far more complex and aware than reptiles and infinitely more so than fish and arthropods.
It is not hypocritical to accept the impossibility of being completely vegan and sometimes wear things like leather. It's like using modern medicine eventhough it's based on a history of animal testing.
It's far simpler just to limit one's behavior and call it good.

[Cat]

Ha, your friend has better explanation than I do. I don't try to "justify" eating seafood and not other critters. I've been lacto-ovo veg and tried veganism, and gone back to being an omnivore, so far, this is working.

[daleduke17]

Depending on how much you trust crazy veg*ns with English, yes it is!

You sure seem to have a problem with actually spelling out words, don't you?

[anriana]

You sure seem to have a problem with actually spelling out words

Apparently on the internet some people type informally and use slang and abbreviatons!

don't you?

And contractions.


"Veg*n" is shorthand for "vegetarians and vegans." Now you know!

[BlaqueKatt]

He says that seafood creatures are "biological machines" and aren't complex enough to merit guilt about eating.

apparently he's never seen a squid or octopus use reason and problem solving-sorry I consider cephalopods to be sentient and won't eat them.

Science Daily

"The cephalopod class of mollusks are considered the most intelligent invertebrates and an important example of advanced cognitive evolution amongst animals in general."

also

"Octopuses and other related creatures, known as cephalopods, are considered to be the most intelligent invertebrates because they have relatively large brains and they can be trained for various learning and memory tasks, says Dr. Hochner.

Their behavior repertoire and learning and memory abilities are even comparable in their complexity to those of advanced vertebrates.

awww look at the baby octipus-ok so that's actually an adult that doesn't get all that big-it's a pygmy!

Ok these are babies-5 weeks old-awww

[anriana]

apparently he's never seen a squid or octopus use reason and problem solving-sorry I consider cephalopods to be sentient and won't eat them.

Science Daily

"The cephalopod class of mollusks are considered the most intelligent invertebrates and an important example of advanced cognitive evolution amongst animals in general."

awww look at the baby octipus-ok so that's actually an adult that doesn't get all that big-it's a pygmy!

Ok these are babies-5 weeks old-awww

Oh, sorry. I automatically use "seafood" when I mean "crabs, lobsters, and shrimp" even though I know it includes things like octopi and squids and other creatures. I don't know anyone who eats the latter so I sometimes forget that some people consider them food.

Cute pics.

[BroomJockey]

"Veg*n" is shorthand for "vegetarians and vegans." Now you know!

And knowing is half the battle! *the more you know star flies overhead*

Seriously though, I'd never known about that. I figured you were just censoring vegan. Confused me greatly.

[AFPheonix]

It's happening with horses, too. For some reason, eating Beauty the nag is somehow reprehensible when eating ol' Bessy the bossy cow is a-ok. Go figure.

If the animals are handled correctly and slaughtered relatively humanely (and it can be done), then good.

[Flyndaran]

...
If the animals are handled correctly and slaughtered relatively humanely (and it can be done), then good.

As an omnivore it is almost required for you to believe that if only to sleep at night with a full belly.
I eat birds which have been shown to have quite complex brains. I feel guilty about it, but see it as a case of their lives or mine.
I don't see it as ok, just the lesser of two evils.
I won't ever be comfortable with having to make the choice of kill or be killed by malnutrition.

[Savannah]

Don't even get me started on the whole loving baby animals and not caring about adults. I volunteer at the county animal shelter and I can't count how many dogs we've had that have clearly (based on age and behavior) been gotten as cute puppies and abandoned when they actually *gasp* became large adult dogs.

As for caring about certain types of adult animals over others, I suspect that the reason that dogs and cats are valued above pigs and cows is that dogs and cats have been bred to be "cute" and to depend on people emotionally, while livestock has been bred to be docile enough to handle. It's not just that dogs and cats are seen as companions, but they really do see us as companions as well.

You also can't underestimate the effect that "cuteness" or "nobility" has on many people. I believe that it is why we care about saving some endangered species (Sumatran tigers and fin whales) but not others (spruce-fir moss spiders and broad-headed snakes). People are weird...

[Nyoibo]

I don't really have that much of a problem eating any animal, hell I'd have no problem eating human either. Mmm, delicious long pork.

[Boozy]

Am I the only one seriously creeped out by the thought of highly intelligent octopi? Those things are scary enough.