Chivalry

[RecoveringKinkoid]

It's not about men thinking you're helpless. It's about them respecting you.

And it DOES go both ways.

[Akasa]

It's not about men thinking you're helpless. It's about them respecting you.

I beg to differ. I had a boyfriend once who went on and on about being chivilrous, but as soon as he wanted me to do something he'd hold it over my head and use is as a guilt trip.
It's nice when its sincere, but there are guys out there who aren't and attempt to use it as a weapon.

[RecoveringKinkoid]

Well, then, that guy was not being chivalrous. He was being a wad.

It's only chivalrous if the guy is actually being...you know... chivalrous.

[BroomJockey]

I beg to differ. I had a boyfriend once who went on and on about being chivilrous,

People who say they are something generally aren't.

Except for me. I'm an arsehole.

[powerboy]

People who say they are something generally aren't.

Except for me. I'm an arsehole.

I agree Broomy. You are an arsehole

[Lace Neil Singer]

One thing that used to trouble me was when I rode the bus to work and if an elderly psgr (male or female) would get on, and no one would get up to let him/her sit down. My mother raised me better than that. If any disabled/elderly person got on the bus, I always gave up my seat.

I will say that I don't ever do that; not cuz I'm a nasty, rude person, but cuz I have a bad back and standing up on a bus can be agony for me. Before the motorbike accident that created the bad back tho, I would give up my seat to an elderly person. I still now will help a disabled or elderly person off the bus, or a mother with a buggy. Those things are murder to get off the bus folded up, especially if you have a couple of loose kids to hang on to as well.

[Boozy]

I agree Broomy. You are an arsehole

And he's rude, apparently.



Most chivalrous things I consider to be basic manners, and should be done equally by both sexes. Like holding the door for the person behind you.

I am distrustful of men who do ye-olde-tymey chivalrous things like standing when a woman enters the room, or seating a woman at the table by moving her chair for her. Those things do nothing to improve anyone's life. I find it awkward when someone else is handling the chair for me. I don't need a big production when I enter a room. Furthermore, those are things that some men do for women, but no woman would do for a man. Therefore I don't consider them courtesies -- I consider them a throwback to more sexist days.

[Falconess]

I have one story I usually tell people about, when they start talking about how guys have to open doors for women, and when my female friends start talking about how wonderful it is that their male makes them wait in the car, until he's run around to open it for her.

When I was 16, I had this boyfriend. He insisted I stay in the car and wait for him to walk around and open the door. He'd race ahead of me, to open the door, and if there was a second door, I was to stand there and wait for him to open the second one. He paid for every single outing, and snuck the check away, for his own b-day dinner, so he could pay it. In the winter (living in KC, MO), if it was 30F or below, he'd take his coat off and put it around me, even if I wasn't all that cold.

What happened to Lord Byron? Well, I kicked him to the curb. Now, the way I did it was not all that nice, and I realize (especially after reading this thread), that there are women out there who love that. That's wonderful, and I honestly feel terrible for hurting him. But I felt smothered!

It's nice, if I'm wearing a dress, if a guy opens the car door, so I can get in and situate myself, without having to worry about the door shutting on me, or my dress. If he reaches the door first, and wants to open it for me, I think that's fine. But I get so angry when a guy tells me I have to wait for him, to open any door. That's just not the way I work. I'm a pretty independent person, and I believe in efficiancy. If it's more efficiant for us to go our respective sides of the car and open our doors, do it. If you want to be a "gentleman" and open my car door, fine, but I'm capable of shutting it. And for the love of all things fuzzy, if it's freezing outside, don't worry, I can get my own door, go start the darn car and get the heater running!

I wish I could remember the name of the movie, who the actress was. But there's this movie, set durring the women's rights movement. A female teacher, who's also an activist, is teaching at a boarding school. She's trying to convince her female students that they don't have to be "Susie home-maker." When one of her students gets married to a man who expects her to be the perfect little stay-at-home wife, and raise a brood of children, the teacher pleads with her, "It doesn't have to be this way." to which, her student replys, "but this is what I've wanted my whole life!" Teacher is left standing there, with a dumb look on her face, trying to put it all together.

That movie really opened my eyes. Just because I'm independent, and refuse to rely on a man to pay for everything, and "take care" of me doesn't mean it's what all women want.

I'm a child of divorce. My parents, my grandparents, many of my friends' parents. I've seen what happens to a woman who relys on a man to take care of her. Not that I'm planning on things not working for me and my male. But I do get some comfort in knowing, if it does happen, and I'm alone, I can take care of myself.

A bit more extreme than simply door-holding. However, I think a truly independent woman, would have ended up just as irritated at that male, as I was. Oh, and just to end that story, he is now happily married, and has been, for the past 3 years, to a woman who adores his chivalric behavior.

[BroomJockey]

I wish I could remember the name of the movie, who the actress was.

Mona Lisa Smile, Julia Roberts and Julia Styles? I love that movie. Very powerful to me.

[Falconess]

YES!!! OMG thank you BroomJockey. Looooved that movie, very much. Really helped me, when I was younger, not understanding why I was the way I was. I was raised in a community where women were supposed to be good little housewives..didn't jive *laughs*

[McDreidel09]

I'm a woman ftr.

I like the little things. If he is ahead, he can open the door. I will do the same in return. If he wants to open the car door for me so I can get in, fine. I will unlock his door when he walks to his side. If he wants to give me his coat, I protest a bit, but take it anyway. I will snuggle closer so he can be somewhat warm. I find helping me get over a big puddle by holding my hand to be cute.

Twice a week, I do fencing. That is a HUGE chivalry sport. When the guys salute or bow to everyone, they tend to bow lower for the ladies. I do a little head bow back, but this act makes me blush.

I am an independent woman. I offer to help pay the bill or pay it entirely. I don't just "take" the actions he does. I do something in return.

[RecoveringKinkoid]

I suspect McDreidel runs in the same circles...and does the same sport...as I do. She "gets" it.

It works both ways. She's right.

As for the "standing" thing Boozy mentioned, yeah, that's a little awkward, but hey, I live in the south so you deal with it. It depends on the situation. I walk into a business meeting, no. I walk into a roomful of my friends, no. I walk into a formal dining room, yes. Depends on the situation.

Like I've said before, it's not about sexism, it's about respect. Granted, it needs to be done with respect (I think we did talk about when it's not earilier in the thread, if I recall), but as long as it IS done with respect, I will appreciate it and reciprocate.

I should mention that Ivar, who features in many of my stories, does what he calls the "door lock" check. When out with someone he's trying to get to know, he'll let her into his car and then walk around to his side. If she fails to unlock the door, he's on alert that she may not be someone who is into the idea of mutual respect and courtesy.

Especially if it's raining.

It's a little thing, but it speaks pretty loudly.

[Boozy]

It's getting hard to find cars without remote entry -- or at least automatic locks. Ivar may need a new test pretty soon.

[Flyndaran]

Basing one's behavior on the sex of a person is by definition sexist. It's not always bad. It's sexist, but necessary to put urinals only in the men's room for example.

As a man, I don't have to deal with it that much. But I'm sure that if I were a woman it would grate on my nerves to be treated differently than a man.

[ThePhoneGoddess]

I thought I'd give some information on the history of chivalry since I love the early middle ages and have studied them extensively. I hope you all find it interesting.

The ideas that later became part of the idea of chivalry were originally created and endorsed by the Catholic church during the early middle ages in order to protect the peasantry. The middle ages were a very harsh time to live in, and life for most people was hard, brutish and short. Those men who grew up to be stronger or braver or more cunning than average often ended up becoming warriors or knights. Violence was excessively common because of the manner in which feudal societies were constructed, and in between the periods of violence, these men who were successful warriors often behaved like bullies, wandering about and taking advantage of others who were weaker than them.

The clergy spent a lot of time trying to persuade powerful nobles and their warriors that it was unchristian and ungodly to prey on the weak and the innocent. It took a while, a couple centuries in fact, but eventually these ideas were accepted as part of the responsibility of being a knight.

Eventually the church became powerful enough to pass decrees which nobles and knights would follow---for the most part--- laying out serious punishments like excommunication for attacking or robbing churches, burning huts and stealing farm animals from peasants, attacking women and children and unarmed priests, engaging in battle on holy days and other such crimes. These kinds of behaviors were incredibly common among knights, and caused no end of social problems.

In later years, say after 1300 or so, society became less violent as the culture changed. Writers then began to romanticize the warriors of that earlier time period, and that's what we remember today, stories of knights in shining armor rescuing damsels in distress. But up until the 13th and 14th centuries, knights were widely feared and distrusted by the average European. Most of them were violent bullies. These fiction writers, such as Chretien De Troyes and Sir Thomas Mallory, helped create the idea of chivalry being a specific code of conduct for knights which emphasized honor, mercy, valor, and other such traits.

These writers were extremely popular in Victorian England, in fact anything to do with the middle ages became very popular during the 1800's, and the idea of 'chivalry' as a specific code of conduct for behaving around women dates from that era. Previously chivalry had not applied mostly to men's behavior around women, chivalry was actually seen more as a responsibility the powerful members of society had toward the poor and the innocent.

Anywayz, I hope you enjoyed this history lesson.