Messing with Married Women

[Hobbs]

...or "What's the easiest way to get shot?"

As inspired by this thread: http://customerssuck.com/board/showthread.php?t=62088

I'm posting this to try and clear the air.

Now, the situation in and of itself was not wrong. I hang out with coworkers, some are married, some are single, what-have-you. Now, when I work in a bar (which I do every Friday except this week), I may talk/chat-up the women/girls that are there, I'm polite. However, once the night is over, I'm done. Why?

First of all, I'm not gonna meet anyone I like at a bar. I've met people before, but they're no longer my friends b/c I've decided that people who can only have fun when drunk aren't worth it.

Secondly, for some odd reason, I seem to be a magnet for women near my mom's age. I wouldn't mind if they were 21-28ish range, but they're not. And some of them are married, which brings me to my next point.

Starting a casual friendship with a married woman is tricky. For the most part, the married women I have as friends I know through the Air Force. Their husbands know me and trust me because we've been through training/whatnot together. When it comes to meeting potentially married women at a bar, I take my father's advice. He's been in show business for nearly 50 years and has told me how the risk greatly outweighs the benefits, for the most part.

Ed: I'd like to add that I respect women a lot, I've been under the command of several and respect them all. It really hurts me to think that people I speak to think differently of me. I do think that married women and married men can have friendly relationships together. If not, what I just said in Item 3 would make me a hypocrite. All I was saying, from the beginning, is to avoid instances where there is percieved inpropriety! That is all.

[Plaidman]

I think I kinda understand.

Its fine for married woman to be friends with single guys. (And married men to be with single girls). But not to do strange things together.

IE: Stay in a hotel room over night. (By themselves, not a group, that could LOOK bad, even if they didn't do anything. Just looks strange. Even though I've known plenty of people to do above because they're friends).

The guy give many wierd gifts. (expensive jewery, romantic overtores).


However, in this day and age, alot of people do those kinds of things. They're not doing anything bad. A happily married person, would not cheat. The whole point of marriage is trust and love. Just because some people have cheated on their other, doesn't make all of them cheaters. People cheat for all kinds of reasons. They're unhappy. They're bored. Their husband/wife beats/insults them veryday. There thousands of reasons why that happens.

It's old fashion sounding, at least to me to put such a blanket over everything. But I get what you're saying I think.

That being said, I still don't see what Jester did wrong. He hung out with married girls, he didn't touch or kiss any of them, nor tried to. He saw a number and didn't know who it was, sent a text. Person told him not to text, so he didn't. end of story. that's all it was. Nothing improper.

[Hobbs]

See? Finally someone gets it!

It wasn't that he did do anything wrong, it was the perception that he was doing something wrong. A single guy getting drunk with three married women, at least to me, sounds improper, which is all I was saying. Somehow it got turned into me being a chauvanist[sic]. The only part where he[Jester] did anything wrong was it not seeing how it would look to an outsider.

[the_std]

I think that is a very chauvinistic point of view. How is it anyone's business but the wife and the husband who she hangs out with? What's it to you if a married woman has a friend who has a penis that isn't the one she puts inside of her? It doesn't matter what it looks like to outsiders because married couples do not have to answer to anyone besides their spouse. If you (metaphorical you) are getting bent out of shape about it, that's your problem, not theirs.

[Hobbs]

See, you're still not understanding me. I'm NOT getting bent out of shape. I am simply EXPLAINING how it is percieved. You're shooting the messenger here. I've already said what I do and do not believe. Why won't you believe me?

Ed: The part where I said "...at least, to me..." is my opinion. I will be honest and say that, if it had been me, I certainly would have excused myself from their company and gone home. That said, I still don't sit in judgment on every person in a bar. That'd be a task I'm not well-suited for.

[the_std]

See, you're still not understanding me. I'm NOT getting bent out of shape. I am simply EXPLAINING how it is percieved. You're shooting the messenger here. I've already said what I do and do not believe. Why won't you believe me?

I wasn't addressing you personally. See the metaphorical you.

And I'm saying that it shouldn't matter how it's perceived. Who the hell cares about how other people see it? Continuing to spread this message of "oh no, don't let them see you" is contributing to this chauvinistic point of view. If you truly don't agree, then why tell other people that they should care?

[Hobbs]

I'm sorry, it's just that, in the earlier thread, no one seemed to differentiate the metaphorical me from the real me.

Yes, it shouldn't matter, but this isn't the Land of Perfect. It ain't all rainbows and lollipops, you roger that? Jester seems to be perfectly okay with guys coming after him to inflict bodily harm/death upon him. That's his thing. Me? I'd rather not deal with it at all...can't have a fight if you ain't there, ya know?

[the_std]

Yes, it shouldn't matter, but this isn't the Land of Perfect. It ain't all rainbows and lollipops, you roger that? Jester seems to be perfectly okay with guys coming after him to inflict bodily harm/death upon him. That's his thing. Me? I'd rather not deal with it at all...can't have a fight if you ain't there, ya know?

I went back and read through the entirety of the thread in question, and you seem to be over-inflating some things. There was no question of "guys coming after him to inflict bodily harm/death upon him", I have no idea where you're getting that from. Jester was simply asking about texting a woman who seemingly insulted him. There was absolutely no mention of fighting with the husbands or anything like that.

Also, you seem to wholeheartedly believe in this chauvenistic viewpoint as can be summed up in one phrase, from your post in the thread in question on CS.

A gentleman simply does not do those sorts of things with an unescorted lady.

That is the most antiquated and repressive pieces of bull I have ever seen uttered on this forum. Why do you believe that? Why does a woman need to be escorted? Why is it improper? Do you not believe that woman should be accountable for their actions or trusted to make their own decisions?

[Hobbs]

Quoted from Jester:

"But what if one day one doesn't listen, and just comes at you physically?"

Bring it. If you haven't noticed, I don't really bother with fear much. Unless it's bees. I am scared shitless of bees. So if I ever flirt with a beekeeper's wife unknowingly, I could be in some serious trouble.

Yeah, I don't mind defending myself, but I don't put myself in situations where I'll have to defend myself.

I don't believe in that at all. I cannot for the life of me understand why, when I say one thing, you say I have said another. A woman should be held accountable for her actions, as should a man. That said, I still don't see why my advice to avoid problematic scenarios is chauvinistic.

[Lace Neil Singer]

I may eventually get married to my boyf one day; does that mean that I should ditch all my male friends when that day happens?

Like hell. Single, going steady, engaged, married; it's up to me who I hang out with and, for the record, my boyf has met all of my male mates and trusts me completely; as I have met all his female friends and trust him, too.

[Nyoibo]

Honestly it seems this attitude comes from one or both of these ideas.

1. Men and women can't be "just" friends.
2. Married women are the property of their husbands.

[Hobbs]

Honestly it seems this attitude comes from one or both of these ideas.

1. Men and women can't be "just" friends.
2. Married women are the property of their husbands.

That's not what I'm saying AT ALL. <.<

[Hobbs]

I may eventually get married to my boyf one day; does that mean that I should ditch all my male friends when that day happens?

Like hell. Single, going steady, engaged, married; it's up to me who I hang out with and, for the record, my boyf has met all of my male mates and trusts me completely; as I have met all his female friends and trust him, too.

I NEVER said that.

To quote myself:

It really hurts me to think that people I speak to think differently of me. I do think that married women and married men can have friendly relationships together.

[MaggieTheCat]

I understood what Hobbs was talking about back in the CS thread, but it got closed before I could post.

I think one of the things that makes the situation Jester was in different from what everyone else is talking about, is that Jester didn't know these girls. Lace says she won't ditch her male friends once (if) she gets married, but they already had an existing friendship, and I'm assuming that her boyfriend/husband knows these friends, or at least knows of them. In Jester's situation, he was basically hooking up with these girls. He had never met them before that night, didn't know anything about them, and then proceeded to spend 6+ hours with them, drinking and flirting, without their husband's around.

Should it matter that their husbands weren't around? I dunno, that's a matter of personal opinion. Personally I would not put myself in that situation. I would not go to a bar with a group of girl friends and then invite some random guy to join us for the evening if my husband wasn't around. That's just me.

Now, that's not to say that married men and women can't make new friendships with members of the opposite sex. But generally, my and my husband's circle of friends overlap. We all know each others' friends or at least know who they are. I don't know about anyone else, but I would think that at least some guys would be weirded out if thy asked their SO, "So what did you do last night with your girlfriends?" and the answer was, "Oh, we hooked up with some random bartender and spent the night barhopping with him."

[Hobbs]

I understood what Hobbs was talking about back in the CS thread, but it got closed before I could post.

I think one of the things that makes the situation Jester was in different from what everyone else is talking about, is that Jester didn't know these girls. Lace says she won't ditch her male friends once (if) she gets married, but they already had an existing friendship, and I'm assuming that her boyfriend/husband knows these friends, or at least knows of them. In Jester's situation, he was basically hooking up with these girls. He had never met them before that night, didn't know anything about them, and then proceeded to spend 6+ hours with them, drinking and flirting, without their husband's around.

Should it matter that their husbands weren't around? I dunno, that's a matter of personal opinion. Personally I would not put myself in that situation. I would not go to a bar with a group of girl friends and then invite some random guy to join us for the evening if my husband wasn't around. That's just me.

Now, that's not to say that married men and women can't make new friendships with members of the opposite sex. But generally, my and my husband's circle of friends overlap. We all know each others' friends or at least know who they are. I don't know about anyone else, but I would think that at least some guys would be weirded out if thy asked their SO, "So what did you do last night with your girlfriends?" and the answer was, "Oh, we hooked up with some random bartender and spent the night barhopping with him."

Thank you, thank you Maggie!! You get me That's EXACTLY what I meant!!