Country-bashing

[Sylvia727]

There's a thread over on CS right now that getting pretty heated, so I thought I start the debate over here. The argument is that Americans (or USAns) get bashed when they go to other countries, so it's okay for Americans to bash foreigners here. Or possibly the Americans started it, so it's okay for other countries to do it to USAn citizens. I don't think there's ever an excuse to bash someone's country, but it does happen. I've heard second-hand stories from friends (A Brit started ranting about baseball, another Brit started ranting about Americans' lack of etiquette, and a Canadian blaming Joe Average for George W's actions). I've also seen foreigners being mistreated by my fellow citizens, much to my shame. Reactions?

[Greenday]

I bash Canada when I'm talking to a couple of the Canadian members of one of my gaming clans and they bash America back. It's a lot of fun

The only time I seriously bash another person's home-country is when a foreigner I'm trying to talk to gets pissy with me for not speaking their language. Oh, I'm sorry, English is America's main language. Get used to it and shut the hell up.

[Boozy]

I bash Canada when I'm talking to a couple of the Canadian members of one of my gaming clans and they bash America back. It's a lot of fun

Oh definitely. As old friends and neighbours, Americans and Canadians have a long-standing tradition of mutual bashing. Its usually done in the spirit of fun.

Its kind of like this: Canada and the US are sisters. I can call my sister a bitch, and she can call me one back, and we'll both laugh it off because that's how we grew up together.

Come to think of it, the United Kingdom is sort of like our parents. They can't call us bitches, but they can sort of joke around about us being silly little children. They shake their heads and tsk-tsk a lot.

/tortured metaphor

In all seriousness: No, Americans can't treat foreigners like shit just because they've been treated like shit when they traveled. That's like saying, "Oh, I was pick-pocketed in Calcutta, so I'm going to shoplift from the Indian-owned convenience store in my hometown in retaliation."

One person should never be held responsible for the cumulative evils of their country.

[AFPheonix]

Furthermore, the old saw about 2 wrongs not making a right is very much salient here.
I haven't been out of the country for a few years, but I can't say that I've ever had trouble with people in other countries, no matter if I was in Canada, Spain, Mexico or the Caribbean. Typically, if you yourself behave in a respectful manner, then you will be treated in kind.

[Amethyst Hunter]

Stereotypes exist for a reason. They're not fair, and they're certainly not kind, but they didn't get started for nothing. If we were able to eradicate the (bad) causes behind them, the stereotypes would (eventually) die out.

Country-bashing can get on my nerves, depending on who's doing it and what the intent is (as someone else mentioned, the (usually) friendly rivalry between Canada and the US). Two such examples stand out in my mind: the "Freedom Fries" and the wardrums for Iran.

France didn't want to get bogged down in a poorly-planned muckup started under false pretenses by a bratty little would-be prince? Can't say that I blame them, frankly. But because they didn't kiss ass like they Should Have, it's OK to deride them for it.

As for Iran, it's not the world's greatest place on earth, but it's also not exactly the cesspool it's often made out to be. Yes, human rights have been and continue to be a huge problem there (particularly in regards to free press), but there are people, many of them Iranians themselves (risking torture and imprisonment for it to boot), who are working to fix that. Iran, unlike our so-called progressive 'allies' Saudi Arabia, actually lets their women vote and drive, and despite the still-restrictive code on dress, doesn't as a general rule require women to wear the full-body burkha that is common in SA. Even Iranians will say that it's the government and the religious factions that are the problem, not the citizenry - many of whom are, or would be, friendly(er) towards Americans (if we'd stop demonizing the entire country) - as a whole.

I find it very interesting that their nutjobs are not much different than the nutjobs we have here in the US: heavy use of military and religious symbolism and saber-rattling, nationalism as a rallying point, regressive and restrictive codes of self-proclaimed 'morality' forcibly imposed (or in the process of being so) on the populace, censorship and control of the mass media...

As far as the US goes, I believe I'm entitled to criticize certain of its factors because hey, I live here and thus have a front-row seat to our particular brand of idiocy in action. (Hell, it even states in our founding documents that we're SUPPOSED to criticize it!) And, let's face it - there ARE other countries that DO do certain things way better than we do. For instance, places in Europe have probably less than half the trouble we do with guns, drugs, sex-related topics and crime. Could it be because they maybe take education a little more seriously and dispense with all the bullshit Puritan guilt-tripping and coddling and crap? They must be doing something right, if their levels of such maladies are lower than ours.

However, that doesn't mean that I think *all* Americans are troglodytes or that I want to go setting flags on fire everywhere I go (which I think is stupid anyway, mainly because it's a waste of a perfectly good flag and it really doesn't accomplish anything other than pissing off people who might otherwise be motivated to help causes). I *am* thankful that I was born here and not someplace truly horrid like places that undergo constant warfare and abuse. For all its faults, there are still a lot of good things about the US, and those good things are worth taking care of.

I imagine the same probably holds true for a lot of other places. No country on earth is perfect and ever will be, but you could do a lot worse than countries that are popular targets for bashing.

[Seshat]

Stereotypes exist for a reason. They're not fair, and they're certainly not kind, but they didn't get started for nothing.

I imagine the same probably holds true for a lot of other places. No country on earth is perfect and ever will be, but you could do a lot worse than countries that are popular targets for bashing.

Some Americans are Ugly American Tourists. Face it, it's true. Some Australians are also Ugly Australian Tourists. Some Americans are jingoistic, bigotted, and narrow-minded. But it's Australia that birthed Pauline Hanson. (Sorry folks. At least we managed to kick her out of parliament. But some of us actually VOTED for her! )

Most of the time, most people try to do their best. That's the one thing I firmly believe in, and I believe it crosses borders and boundaries. People may disagree on what 'best' is: and much as I hate it, Pauline Hanson probably believes her agenda is what's best for Australia. But even when people disagree on what 'best' is, I still think most people are trying to do their best.

I don't like country-bashing, stereotyping, and other things like that, but I know I sometimes do it myself. Eh, I'm human too.

[rahmota]

Oh I hated the "freedom fries" BS. Being in rural appalachia the whole Pro Us , The US is Gods Country thing ran very very very high and saying anything against it was tantamount to treason in a lot of people's eyes. Heck I went to last years 4th of July festival in peebles (population less than a mcdonalds in new york) and the local VFW was still selling "freedom fries" at their booth.

So yeah stupidity is hard to die. Stereotypes do exist for a reason and there are people who live it. Fortunately things have calmed down so you wont get lynched asking for french fries in the local diner anymore but still america pride is high.

Not that being proud of your country gives anyone the right to deride anyone else. I am proud to be an american for the most part, but theres quite a lot about other countries people can be proud of too. I mean seshat has a lot to be proud about in australia and I have no quibble about that. Boozy has a lot about canada to be proud of.

So yeah its stupid, its rude and its very human to do this. Doesnt make it right but it does make life interesting.

[Seshat]

We all have things to be proud about, and things to wince and kind of hope noone mentions them. it's life.

[ditchdj]

There's a thread over on CS right now that getting pretty heated, so I thought I start the debate over here. The argument is that Americans (or USAns) get bashed when they go to other countries, so it's okay for Americans to bash foreigners here.

I never said that. I cant apologize for something I didnt say. That's how some people have chosen to take it. But it really pisses me off to no end when people in the world single out Americans for being loud and rude and blame America for the world's problems. Then I turn around and see and hear about millions of people all over the world literally tearing down our borders to move here. I once had a conversation about this with a student teacher that just moved here from Israel. I told him that I find it funny that so many people in the world hate America and Americans, yet there's so many people in the world that want to move here and adopt OUR way of life. He actually wasnt offended at all and explained to me that our country has a much higher standard of living and how much better opportunities there are here. But when I look at the big picture, what do people care what I think? In the end, people are gonna think what they wanna think and the ONLY thing that I (and everyone else) can do is just be aware of our circumstances and adapt to survive.

[rahmota]

DitchDJ: I think a lot of it is people hate the policies and politics of America, especially concerning the international sphere of influence. But they like the way americans have a lot more freedoms, personal wealth and lack of people with guns waiting to do the whole jackboot tpa dance on their head. Even as screwed up as america has become over the past 8 years we are still better than quite a few places on this planet.

[Sylvia727]

I wasn't trying to quote any one specific person, and I'm sorry if you read it as so. I was just trying to sum up the debate in as few words as possible.

As to the people who bash on Americans and then try to move here: I don't see how this behavior is hypocritical at all. They want our nice things. We have a lot of nice things, some say we have too many nice things. But no two people are going to share every single opinion, and it's primarily attitudes that get bashed. A frequent insult I see in regards to Americans is "corrupt." The idea from some bigoted losers seems to be that every single American is a spoiled child, and our nice things should go to someone more deserving. It's a disgusting attitude, but not hypocritical.

I frankly don't understand it. I don't go onto CS, read a SC customer thread, and respond with "Well, that's typical RandomCountrysCitizen behavior."

[Seshat]

DitchDJ: I think a lot of it is people hate the policies and politics of America, especially concerning the international sphere of influence.

Yes. Most frustrations with "America" are frustrations with unfair trade practices, uncontrolled corporate greed, and arrogant political behaviours. None of these are the fault of ordinary Americans; but people who haven't come into contact with many ordinary Americans don't know that. Nor do the kind of people who prefer knee-jerk reactions to thinking.

But they like the way americans have a lot more freedoms, personal wealth and lack of people with guns waiting to do the whole jackboot tpa dance on their head.

Definitely. They want freedom to raise their children in a relatively uncorrupt environment, they want medical treatment, they want the kind of life they see displayed in American sitcoms.

Then they actually get to the States and are shocked and distressed by minimum wage jobs that only let them afford a dirty shared apartment with no heat, and a complete lack of medical insurance, and - well, the sitcoms LIED.

But still, at least they don't have a jackboot on their head, their sons aren't being forcibly conscripted at age ten, and their daughters aren't being raped by the local so-called 'police'. It's still better.

As I mentioned (in different words) in a different thread: if we richer countries helped get most of the world's people into safe, relatively uncorrupt lives where all their needs and some of their wants are met, illegal immigration will be greatly reduced.

[rahmota]

Seshat: yeah america may have its own corruption, social classes and lack of great social mobility and definately a lot less of the whole jackboot thuggery. We've got problems but by comparison its still not that bad a place.

As for getting things in the rest of the world worked out. Ummm yeah sure when I get to deity status I'll get back to you on that one. Seriously good luck on figuring that one out. We cant even give everyone in america the american way of life, how can we do that for everyone else on the planet?

[AFPheonix]

Stop fucking around in other countries' business when we don't need to (like Iraq), but stepping in in places when it's definitely needed, like Somalia currently and Darfur?

Furthermore not holding a double standard as far as our allies' behavior compared to some less savory countries, like we do with Israel and, say, Syria?

[Seshat]

We cant even give everyone in america the american way of life, how can we do that for everyone else on the planet?

You can't, and shouldn't be expected to. But you (as a nation) can prevent your mega-corporations from making it harder. And a lot of the 'how' can be summarised as holding the mega-corps responsible for the stuff they do.

Continue the same process you've gone through as a nation: stopping the railroad barons, stopping the 'company store' abuses, stopping abusive child labour. The big mega-corporations are still doing that sort of stuff, they're just doing them overseas and 'out of sight'. But those abuses were out of sight to most Americans even when they were happening in America. Yet you stopped them anyway.

Simply doing it again - stopping those abuses again - will go a LONG way towards improving everyone's welfare. More jobs in America, since some jobs will be more profitable to do close-to-market once abusive labour is no longer available; and better conditions elsewhere.