"Speak English" sign in Philly restaurant

[Dreamstalker]

At least most people who don't speak English or are learning English make an effort to work with the workers. But there are so many ridiculous people who expect us to cater to them because they don't WANT to learn English that it is beyond frustration.

The Repair Shop From Hades was like that. The assistant's English was maddeningly poor and she didn't seem in the least interested in my trying to teach her basics (by far the biggest problem was working with someone who was supposed to supervise/delegate, but knew even less than I did--I would be confused about something but couldn't ask her). Her response when I did something that confused her (such as go looking for the breaker box out of curiosity/need to know where it is, adjust the AC, or even just being helpful to the rare customer) was to wave a hand violently in my face.

After I quit (for reasons unrelated to the topic at hand), it became crystal-clear through something the owner said that the assistant had no qualms about making shit up, and it torqued me off that I couldn't tell when she was talking trash and therefore was unable to defend myself.

[Rapscallion]

I've done some thinking on this subject, and I've amended my opinions somewhat.

The US doesn't have an official language, so the basic concept of the sign is wrong. However, I maintain my stance that he can set a policy that orders must be given in the language of his choice.

Is the language inflammatory? I certainly think it is, after some pondering. Do people have the right to be offended? Sure. Does he have the right to say it? Under the first amendment, yes, though I could see that a civil case could be brought (ie not brought by the government).

What also occurs to me is that the US is effectively fifty states in a federation - each one is pretty much a separate country in law, though not necessarily in fact. That sign could have said that it's a predominantly English speaking state, the staff only speak English, and therefore orders must be given in English. That would suit my sense of propriety far better.

Rapscallion

[wanderingjoe72]

Wanderingjoe, good post.

Thank you. I appreciate your comment.

[Dreamstalker]

The US doesn't have an official language, so the basic concept of the sign is wrong. However, I maintain my stance that he can set a policy that orders must be given in the language of his choice.

That sign could have said that it's a predominantly English speaking state, the staff only speak English, and therefore orders must be given in English.

That does make sense. Until universal translator implants become common, it's not possible to instantly understand someone when their spoken/body language is radically different. It would help everyone for staff to not have to play 20 Questions trying to figure out exactly what someone wants. We're not talking about learning MBA-level English, just enough to communicate the basics effectively.

[BroomJockey]

And it's part of this Anglophone obsession with only speaking one language.

Thread necomancy ftw!

Addressing points randomly sprinkled through-out the thread:
1. Sign? Not racist. Barely even bigoted. Jingoistic though? Oh yeah.

2. It is America. Even if it was racist, sexist, and ageist, he could still put it up. I doubt he'd get much business with a sign like that though.

3. American IS English. It is not a separate language. It is a dialect. It's not even a real dialect, since you've got linguistical variants depending on what part of the country you're in. You just have dialects within English, some of which are spoken in America.

4. I really don't think every sign informing people of a shop's policies needs to have "Please" and "Thank you" on it. "No smoking," "No unattended children," "English only for ordering," don't need it. It's not a request. It's a statement. Please and thank you are only for acknowledging someone is voluntarily complying with something they didn't have to do. I find it patronizing to be told "thank you" when I do something not of my own volition.

5. The bit I quoted. Cultural differences are a bitch. Using Anglophone like that in Quebec would get you a mess of enemies (It was often used as an insult, similar to racial slurs, though Francophone never was, not to the same extent), and it wouldn't be looked kindly on in the rest of Canada, to my knowledge. Further, even using Anglophone your way isn't cool. It isn't just English-speakers who don't want to learn other languages. It's anyone who happens to be ego- or ethnocentric. I've described myself as "Anglophone" occasionally, and a lot of other people I know have as well, and they're certainly not obsessed with only speaking one language. In fact, most regret that there isn't more in place to help kids or adults learn more languages around here.

6. I love how every time someone brings up an official language for the US people cry out about "What would you do with the other languages? Make the *gasp* ILLEGAL?~!" Canada hasn't been officially bilingual very long, technically speaking. 1969 with the Official Languages Act. Once that was in place, all that meant was that officially, these were what packaging, signage, and government services had to be provided in. There's nothing stopping people and companies from using additional languages, but they can't expect it from any random source. Honestly, I think it improves the situation. It makes it so that there's a minimum standard of what to expect at any given point, and then other areas with higher concentrations of other languages can provide services and products in that fashion as they need or want. I can walk in to any government office in Canada and ask for them to address me in French, or English, anywhere from BC to NFLD, and in between. I don't have to worry about going in to a predominantly Chinese area, and only receiving service in Cantonese. The only issues I see with the US official language debate as it usually crops up is that a) It's a States Rights issue, thus making it near impossible to enforce across the country, and b) It's presented as if it will be mono-linguistic. If at some point in the future, Canada became Officially Multilingual, I'd have no issues there either. I think it'd improve things, possibly. Would make it more difficult for the government to staff their offices though.
My point, however, is that an Official Language gives a point of commonality. It's a lot harder to hate someone when they can actually talk to you in a fashion you understand, but nothing says that everyone has to speak only the official language.

[Flyndaran]

...
My point, however, is that an Official Language gives a point of commonality. It's a lot harder to hate someone when they can actually talk to you in a fashion you understand, but nothing says that everyone has to speak only the official language.

It's very unamerican. Most of us like to think of this country as a melting pot in that anyone can come here to live, bringing all that makes thier previous culture great. It's ingrained, and throwing all that out with a national language would do far more harm than good.

[DesignFox]

I dunno Flyn. In the past, didn't immigrants learn the English language because they were proud to come to this country? Didn't they try to learn English to better themselves and prove that they were part of the melting pot? People made an effort to "be American" if that makes sense- they didn't want to separate themselves from the rest of the community.

To me, melting pot means that all of us make an effort to get along and create one culture from a mix. Not "we'll continue to speak whatever language and do whatever the fuck we feel like and to hell with everyone else"

If anything, us Americans are pretty darn tolerant. I haven't been out of the country myself, but from what I understand from those who have, there are certain places you go where you need to try and speak the local language. People don't cater to you for speaking English.

I have no problem with people speaking whatever language they like to speak- at home, to others who understand...whatever. But when I go to a place of business, I expect someone to speak clear English. And when customers come to me, I only speak English, so I expect them to speak to me in my native language- if they can't communicate, I see that as their problem. I don't go out of my way to be rude, and I often will refer someone to another office, but I don't waste my time.

Maybe it makes me an asshole, but I really don't care if someone can't find a place with Spanish, Chinese, German, or French speaking employees. You want to live here, make an effort to speak the predominant tongue. Don't get all pissy and entitled when the majority doesn't speak your language.

[BroomJockey]

throwing all that out with a national language would do far more harm than good.

Again, I point to Canada. I think we're much better than the US at letting people keep their original culture, while still making them part of the community, and we have two official languages. We also have an official policy of multiculturalism. No one has to throw out anything. In fact, most times, if you call ahead, you can easily get a translator for most languages to help you at any government office, so limiting the official languages to French and English isn't even much of a barrier to someone who speaks neither. What is does do is still provide that touchstone for anyone permanently living here.

[Flyndaran]

The U.S. is far too populous to ever have one culture.
If you can say that someone needs to learn english because so many other around speak only that, then you and I should learn spanish in areas of america where the vast majority speaks only spanish, right?

[DesignFox]

The U.S. is far too populous to ever have one culture.
If you can say that someone needs to learn english because so many other around speak only that, then you and I should learn spanish in areas of america where the vast majority speaks only spanish, right?

I would never choose to live or shop in an area like that because I don't speak Spanish and I don't want to. If those businesses wish to only cater to those who speak Spanish, then fine. There isn't exactly a law in place that says they can't. I don't necessarily agree with it, but they can do what they want.

I'm just saying that I've found that people who truly want to be a part of this country speak English or are at least trying.

I think that if you move to a country, you learn to speak the language of the people there.

Nothing says you can't preserve your heritage. Nothing says you can't speak your own language. But in dealing with business and government, you should damn well learn the predominant language. If you choose not to learn it, you should get over it when people who don't speak your language don't feel like dealing with you.

Being a whiny entitlement whore because someone won't take your order in Spanish doesn't fly with me. If you expect service, speak the native language.

I would not move to Germany and then complain that the shopkeeper only spoke German. I would not visit France and throw a hissy fit if my server expected me to order food in French.

I expect foreigners or immigrants in my country to extend me the same courtesy.

And I have no problem with business owners telling their customers that they will only help them if they speak English.

I, personally, don't help people who only speak [insert foreign language here]. If they are polite, I will do my best to communicate or refer them to another office. If they are not polite, I firmly tell them NO and send them on their way.

[Flyndaran]

I would never choose to live or shop in an area like that because I don't speak Spanish and I don't want to. If those businesses wish to only cater to those who speak Spanish, then fine. There isn't exactly a law in place that says they can't. I don't necessarily agree with it, but they can do what they want.

I'm just saying that I've found that people who truly want to be a part of this country speak English or are at least trying.
....

I assume you know many languages, otherwise you are demanding others do things you can't. That would make you a hypocrit. Learning languages as an adult is very difficult for most people.

Once they become citizens this becomes their country just as much as those of us born to it.
You actually want a law to force non-english speakers to only operate in public in english even when talking to other non-english speakers? That crap is what nearly destroyed native american culture, when they were abused into only speaking english in public.

[DesignFox]

I<snip>
You actually want a law to force non-english speakers to only operate in public in english even when talking to other non-english speakers? That crap is what nearly destroyed native american culture, when they were abused into only speaking english in public.

I don't think that's what I said...

I was merely stating that people SHOULD speak English if they expect to do business in a country that predominantly has ENGLISH speaking people.

I said nothing about making laws that say people should be arrested, or otherwise abused.

Actually, if you re-read my posts, I think I said that it's fine for people speak whatever language they wish.

I just said I have *no sympathy* for someone who comes to my country, refuses to speak the primary language, and then throws a shit fit because a business won't cater to them.

Sorry. No. I have absolutely no problem with any business telling people they have to speak their language if they expect to be served. If I can't understand you, how the fuck can I help you?

It's courtesy. Nothing more. Nothing less.

If I moved to France, I would learn to speak French. Sure it's difficult. But I would not make the entire population of France cater to my stupid ass because I'm lazy. If I want to be a citizen of another country, I do as they do.

I speak only English. Therefore, I stick to areas where people speak *gasp* English!

I'm sick of this PC bullshit. Do whatever you (generic you) want. But don't get all in a fluff when other people do whatever THEY want. If you don't like the fact that all the local businesses only have owners/employees that only speak English, move! Or learn the damn language!

[lordlundar]

Geeze, how did I miss these posts?

Here, we're officially billingual -- English and French. All federal government offices must provide service in both languages, even in areas where francophone populations are very small to almost non-existent. At the same time, the province of Quebec is officially unilingual and the government has no qualms about enforcing the supremacy of French. So much so that for some time now, Quebec has had it's own language law known as Bill 101 which mandates that all signage for commercial business must be solely or predominantly in French. Under the law it *is* permissible for a business to have signs in other languages, but the French signs must be either bigger, have bigger type or be more numerous. In other words, French must be predominant and the law is actively enforced. Those enforcers have come to be dubbed "the language police"

In any other part of the country this would be completely unacceptable. If anyone tried to use similar tactics to enforce the supremacy and dominance of English somewhere like Ontario or BC and they'd have human rights commissions breathing down their neck in no time. Quebec however gets away with it largely because they can always use the threat of separation to get what they want.

Want to know how Quebec gets away with it? Simple, they didn't sign the constitution. A such, the Federal gov't can't do anything about it.

You call it bias, I call it sick and tired of dealing with assholes who refuse to speak the local language. At least most people who don't speak English or are learning English make an effort to work with the workers. But there are so many ridiculous people who expect us to cater to them because they don't WANT to learn English that it is beyond frustration.

And yet, a large number of Americans go to places where English is not used, let alone not the predominant language and expect everyone they deal with to cater to them and learn English just so the Americans can communicate without having to learn anything. And most of the Americans that do that feel the same way you do Greenday.

[Nyoibo]

And yet, a large number of Americans go to places where English is not used, let alone not the predominant language and expect everyone they deal with to cater to them and learn English just so the Americans can communicate without having to learn anything. And most of the Americans that do that feel the same way you do Greenday.

The difference is that they are usually ignorant tourists, not people who are actually moving to that country to live.

[BroomJockey]

The difference is that they are usually ignorant tourists, not people who are actually moving to that country to live.

I'd say the sentiment is still equal in validity, if not of degree. You just don't need to become fluent, or even conversational. Bring a phrase book or something. Most places will cut you slack if it's clear you're trying. If you're unwilling to make an effort to speak the language of where you're going, don't go there.