A letter about China and Tibet

[lordlundar]

I read this letter this morning and it amused me and infuriated me at the same time.

Speaking of democracy in China, who voted for the Dalai Lama? Why aren't we hearing from the duly elected political leaders of Tibet? And what about our highly prized notion - the separation of church and state? Sounds like the Dalai Lama's supporters would be more than happy to return to the idiotic era of Henry VIII. Come to think of it, nobody voted for that twit either.

Why did this amuse/infuriate me? because this idiot has no clue about the rest of the world. But let's look at each letter in pieces

Speaking of democracy in China

Uh what? since when was China a democracy? It's a socialist dictatorship (see my point on communism in another thread as to why I won't call it communist.) And before that it was feudal monarchy. It never has been a democracy.

who voted for the Dalai Lama?

No one, he is a religious figure who always has been against Socialist China. He instituted a personal exile to avoid being murdered by the current government, and as such stays out of reach.

Why aren't we hearing from the duly elected political leaders of Tibet?

Because they were placed in their positions by the Chinese government, and if they say one word against China, they wind up like the monks.

And what about our highly prized notion - the separation of church and state?

That is a western philosophy which has never been fully adopted ANYWHERE in the world, let alone in East Asia, where the two are often intertwined.

Sounds like the Dalai Lama's supporters would be more than happy to return to the idiotic era of Henry VIII.

Sort of. They want a restoration of the monarchy, as the monarchy always held the Buddhist order in the highest accord, which is a benefit to the modern world. This is as opposed to being hunted and murdered for saying anything about your religion and saying anything but praise for the government.

Now in no way am I condoning the actions of China in this affair (I am personally disgusted by it), but where does this guy get off thinking his way is applicable everywhere in the world? I would honestly love to see him say those things in China or Tibet and see how far he gets. Odds are at best it will be in jail until he's nothing but bones. Last I recall, simply saying democracy is enough to warrant jail time.

[Boozy]

Well refuted. Where did you find this idiotic letter, if I may ask?

The Dalai Lama is not elected, and doesn't really need to be. He is the spiritual leader of the Tibetan people. For Tibetan Buddhists, it is so utterly difficult to separate their spiritual lives from their politics that they don't do it. These are not "Go to church on Sunday, live your life however you want for the rest of the week" sort of people.

You are right in saying that Tibetans are not necessarily opposed to monarchy. A benevolent Buddhist ruler is in many ways the ideal government in their minds.

(Interesting side note: The Buddhist kingdom of Bhutan does not even measure Gross Domestic Product. They measure Gross Domestic Happiness; a measure which includes concepts such as the health of their environment, spiritual growth, education, mental and physical health, and production of art and philosophy. It may sound silly to our western sensibilities, but it shouldn't.)

As far as the Dalai Lama goes, the Communist party elite are, quite frankly, afraid of him. They know how powerful a small group of people with a dynamic leader can be. They themselves took over the most populous nation on the planet in 1949 with a relatively small following.

[lordlundar]

Well refuted. Where did you find this idiotic letter, if I may ask?

Edmonton Sun today. Despite a number of Sun papers around the world being tabloids, the Edmonton Sun is a genuine paper.

[CancelMyService]

Don't forget the democracy that was overthrown by the Communist Party is still around in charge of Taiwan, but the whole world is afraid to acknowledge them for fear of incurring the wrath of the mighty China where 99% of our wonderfully cheap plastic Wal-Mart crap comes from.

The situation in Tibet is beyond atrocious. They've been occupied for decades and the whole world just kind of sits there and lets the largest standing army in the world run over monks and kids with rocks. IMO any country with a shred of decency should boycott the 2008 Olympics and tell China to GFY, but no one will because it's a cash cow and the almighty dollar trumps human rights every time.

Capitalism, ain't it great sometimes?

[AFPheonix]

Eh. Boycotting the Olympics in the past really hasn't done a whole lot. I do find it interesting that there's several athletes who are going to sit this one out because the air is so crappy over there, though.
What's even more interesting is how the Chinese media have been portraying the riots in Tibet. NPR's had a number of interviews with Chinese citizens spouting off the party line that they heard on the national networks instead of being able to see what was really going on right next door. They flat out don't know. It's scary and sad all at the same time.

[Boozy]

Eh. Boycotting the Olympics in the past really hasn't done a whole lot. I do find it interesting that there's several athletes who are going to sit this one out because the air is so crappy over there, though.

Coal plants. They're building them at a rate of one a week over there, and we have no leverage to stop them. Its a climate change catastrophe.

Re: the Olympics. Even the Dalai Lama doesn't want people boycotting the Olympics, because its pointless and punishes people who don't deserve it. Its just a silly thing people want to do because it will make them feel better. If we really want to stand up to China, we need to stop importing their crap.

[AFPheonix]

At least because of the Olympics Tibet is back on the map, and China has had to behave itself at least somewhat since everyone's watching. I suspect there will be a big-ass crackdown again on speech once the world is looking elsewhere, though.

I heard this the other day on the radio. God, the IOC is slimy.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...oryId=89195074

[CancelMyService]

David Kilgour, a Canadian human rights lawyer and former member of parliament, says the games never should have been given to China. He supports a boycott of the opening ceremonies.

I agree with this guy. Don't punish the athletes, just turn the opening ceremonies (which is where the host is supposed to shine) into an embarrassment for China.

Also, I don't know how you can say China has had to behave itself unless you mean that without the Olympics they would have just dropped the hammer on Tibet at day one.

I find it pretty funny that people still complain about how the 1980 boycott ruined the hopes and dreams of athletes, yet it's perfectly OK that the US won a boatload of gold in 1984 because all the Soviet bloc countries that would have given them competition boycotted Los Angeles. I mean, nothing against her personally but every time I see Mary Lou Retton I laugh at how she's seen as a hero to the US for winning gold against what was pretty much the equivalent of substitute teachers. Only 1 of the 11 gold medal winners from the 1983 world championships ended up competing in the Olympics.

[AFPheonix]

When I say that China has had to behave itself, I mean that they've had to allow a certain amount of personal expression and dissent among the populace without cracking down on them like they did with, say, the Falun Gong. They've also let more foreign journalists have more free reign in the country without state minders to keep them from prying into things that the Chinese Government would rather they didn't.

However, I suspect that openness will most likely close back up once people's attention is diverted to something else.

[protege]

Don't forget the democracy that was overthrown by the Communist Party is still around in charge of Taiwan, but the whole world is afraid to acknowledge them for fear of incurring the wrath of the mighty China where 99% of our wonderfully cheap plastic Wal-Mart crap comes from.

That's *exactly* the problem. The "it's cheaper at Wal-Mart" mentality is really hurting us now. You simply cannot have low prices on things, and high wages. That's why the US manufacturing abilities are drying up--because of the higher wages, it's no wonder why imported goods are taking off...and kicking our asses.

It's happened in the steel industry, coal mining, automotive, toys, you name it. Whenever a less-expensive, but similar-quality item is available...it usually means the domestically-produced item is doomed. (Look what's happening with Chevy's economy cars now that Hyundais have gotten better...)

With that said, I do find it interesting that the Europeans and Japanese are bitching about *our* low-priced (due to the sagging dollar) crap flooding their countries

Back to China. It doesn't really surprise me that they're going after Tibet. These are, after all, the same people who sent a group of *tanks* in on a student rebellion in '89

[Boozy]

I agree with this guy. Don't punish the athletes, just turn the opening ceremonies (which is where the host is supposed to shine) into an embarrassment for China.

Agreed. David Kilgour has lots of good ideas about China; I heard him speak a few years ago. The talk was about Rwanda, but he answered a few questions about Tibet at the end of the speech.

The only problem I have with things like boycotting the games is the same problem I have with things like Earth Hour; they can sometimes serve to make us feel better without actually making a difference. I don't mind symbolic actions to make a point and raise awareness, but at some point we just need to start making difficult decisions and get shit done. I'd hate to see the world collectively wash their hands of this issue after boycotting the Olympic ceremonies, saying "Well that's done then! We sure showed them!"

I'm glad China has the Olympics - now some real attention is being paid to Tibet. We just can't let this opportunity pass without getting some real results.

[CancelMyService]

We will though. China is the elephant in the world's room, everyone knows the terrible things they do but no one dares to speak up because they make all the cheap shit we beat each other up at Wal-Mart for. People have decided a long time ago to look the other way at human rights abuses if that's what it takes to get a good deal on a widget.

Part of me hopes the games will be an embarrassment to China, but I fear them doing some Munich style BS to keep that from happening.

[protege]

People have always looked the other way over those sort of issues. For example, it was known that Hitler was up to no good. However, most of the world still remembered the horrors of WWI, and didn't want to repeat it. They chose to give him whatever he wanted, even parts of other countries. While that was going on, the campaign against the Jews, and other "enemies" started. Nobody seemed to care about that--as long as Hitler wasn't taking over territory, they all looked the other way. That was, until '39 when things *really* started going. By then it was too late!

You'd think that people would have learned from that, but they didn't. Similar instances have occurred all over the place--the former Yugoslavia, Soviet Union (under Stalin), Rwanda, Cambodia, Iraq (with the Kurds), Sudan...

Crap like this will continue to occur, as long as people continue to tolerate it.

[AFPheonix]

They're also being mindful of a very important fact: never engage in a land war in Asia, and don't get in a battle of wits with a Secilian.
(Yes I know, I didn't quote it entirely correctly, it's been ages since I've seen Princess Bride)

[CancelMyService]

People have always looked the other way over those sort of issues. For example, it was known that Hitler was up to no good. However, most of the world still remembered the horrors of WWI, and didn't want to repeat it. They chose to give him whatever he wanted, even parts of other countries. While that was going on, the campaign against the Jews, and other "enemies" started. Nobody seemed to care about that--as long as Hitler wasn't taking over territory, they all looked the other way. That was, until '39 when things *really* started going. By then it was too late!

You'd think that people would have learned from that, but they didn't. Similar instances have occurred all over the place--the former Yugoslavia, Soviet Union (under Stalin), Rwanda, Cambodia, Iraq (with the Kurds), Sudan...

Crap like this will continue to occur, as long as people continue to tolerate it.

Again, the big difference now is that none of those other countries that were doing Bad Things had the advantage of being the main supplier of goods and services.

I mean, I've long ago realized this current administration we have will never do the right thing in any situation, but their Stepin Fetchit act towards China is one of the most embarrassing things they've done.