WHAM Scholarship

[Boozy]

I'm a white male. And that makes me into some sort of demon. And that, too, I'm tired of. I'm a nice guy. But I have to be watched, monitored, and controlled, because I my skin is fair, and I have a penis.

I understand and sympathize with what you are saying about being male.

But you will not get very far arguing that you are unfairly monitored because of your white skin. This is something that minorities live with every day of their lives.

If you want to know what its like to feel scrutinized because of the colour of your skin, try being an Arabic man in an American airport.

[DesignFox]

Wow. All these responses must have just happened today!

Late to jump in here, but Ebonyknight- this is my personal experience:

I received a scholarship from the women's club in my high school. The scholarship was only available to female students. I didn't even know it existed. It turns out, one of my teachers nominated me for it, and I got it.

There weren't any scholarships by a "men's club" available only to the boys from my school. If there had been, I would have heard the announcement at the awards ceremony where I was presented with my scholarships.

As for minority only scholarships- When I was applying for scholarships in high school, there were four being offered by McDonald's. 3 of the 4 scholarships you HAD to be black or Hispanic to apply for. So, being a white kid, I could only apply for 1. The black or Hispanic kids could apply for all 4.

So, I think the WHAM scholarship proved it's point. There is a double standard. THAT is what I have a problem with.

I don't care if Company A wants to support black children. or handicapped children. or women. BUT if Company B then says that they are going to only give money to men. or white children. or right handed children. That should be equally OK.

OR

We get rid of all physical qualifiers and only offer scholarships based on ability.

Which isn't necessarily right either... people should be able to help whoever they choose to help. It shouldn't matter what the background of the student is. It's their money, they should be able to give it to whoever they want. Even if that person is a male or white or both.

[ebonyknight]

Nah, just tired of people saying "I've not seen any evidence of this". Then when told how to find it (quite trivially, I might add), saying "I don't have to do that, and won't."

Also tired of seeing people say that white guys aren't oppressed at all.

I don't have kids. Don't even want to be around them, or even acknowledge they exist. Care to guess why?

Because I'm a guy. And, somehow, that makes me someone that has to be watched, because I might be a pedophile.

Have to be extremely careful around women, too. I've had accusations of sexual harassment levelled at me (even been written up for it See here). When I reported the reverse? I was told to suck it up, and deal with it.

I'm a guy. I've read commentary from women that the only reason all men are not in prison on rape charges is because some of them haven't been caught yet. I've read other commentary which stated that two homosexual males having anal intercourse in the privacy of their own bedroom is oppressive to women.

I'm male, I'm not a pedophile, and I'm not a rapist. I get tired of being viewed that way by idiots who know nothing else about me other than having seen me once.

I'm a white male. And that makes me into some sort of demon. And that, too, I'm tired of. I'm a nice guy. But I have to be watched, monitored, and controlled, because I my skin is fair, and I have a penis.

And then to watch people blatantly ignore evidence which is all but handed to them on a silver platter? It does piss me off.

Ignore me if you wish. That's your prerogative.

Ignore you? I have no reason to ignore you, I don't see you as some kind of idiot.

No, I make no assumptions as I didn't recall seeing you state that you were for or against them. Instead, what I saw was somebody saying "Nope, not gonna do it." And tired of it. You tell people to be open minded, open to discussion, and refuse to do trivial searches that are all but given to you as clickable links.

As for hostility towards minorities? No, I don't have that. Instead I have hostility towards people who demonize me on the basis of my gender or skin color.

And people say it doesn't happen.

And despite it all...you WERE hostile. You gave a lot of reasons for me to show sympathy, yet you give none. This is where the hypocrisy I spoke of comes from.

You seem to be asking for something for nothing. Others have hurt you, so you feel you have no obligation not to return the same. Fine. But don't cry to me about your problems if you WILL NOT listen to anyone else's. That is what discussion and understanding is about.

You seem to be under the completely irrational notion, that I have to prove your case for you (this is absolutely nutty to me.). I am sorry, but no court in the land works like that. It's your duty to present evidence for your position, not mine.

While I am not on your side, I am not against it. But because of your hostility, I have very little sympathy. NOW, you know what a minority feels like. Congratulations! You know what it feels to be on the other side.

Instead of realizing that, you succumb to the very thing you accuse others of taking advantage of.

I don't know what else to say...there are two sides to every argument, but you are completely unwilling to see the other because of your own tribulations. Just as a lot of white people see blacks whining about their misfortunes, it is extremely easy to see the same on your side.

[Pedersen]

Again, for the record, what black-only/female only scholarships are you guys talking about?

Google "minorities scholarship". You will come up with pages of organizations offering their money to minorities. Google "female scholarship". You will come up with pages of organizations offering their money to women. Now google "white scholarship". It's pages of opinions on the topic; not a single offer. Same with "male scholarship". I'm surprised you've never encountered a minority-specific scholarship before. They're incredibly common.

Typically, when someone wants to prove a point, they don't tell the people they are trying to convince to "google it" themselves. I asked for some examples. Because a good number of times, people like to go off half cocked and don't even realize they don't even have all the information.
--SNIP--
Again, no one has provided any examples, so how do I know that anyone is being "bigoted" against? The only evidence I have seen so far is that whites are excluding non-whites...and that is what the United States has done for most of it's history to minorities.

• http://www.google.com/search?q=female+scholarship

Second, scholarships for minorities:

• http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q...ty+scholarship

The only difference between what Sylvia727 did and what I did convert the search phrase into clickable links. If you read those links, you will see that they are lists, and not specific examples, as you were requesting. For some reason, my clickable links are more acceptable than what Sylvia727 told you to do.

That, to me, is irrational.

But you will not get very far arguing that you are unfairly monitored because of your white skin. This is something that minorities live with every day of their lives.

If you want to know what its like to feel scrutinized because of the colour of your skin, try being an Arabic man in an American airport.

Damn, did the rules change on me again? I thought that the rule was something like "Bigotry in any form is bad, and should not be tolerated." Why didn't I get the memo that it had become "Bigotry against any non-white male is bad, and should not be tolerated"? I really do try and keep up with these rules, but just can't quite do it.

Wait, that's been a rule for my entire life. If you're a white male, you deserve to have done to you what your ancestors did to others, even though you yourself did not do it. I think that you have, more adequately than any other person, Boozy, shown exactly what the original issue was about.

Thank you.

You seem to be asking for something for nothing. Others have hurt you, so you feel you have no obligation not to return the same. Fine. But don't cry to me about your problems if you WILL NOT listen to anyone else's. That is what discussion and understanding is about.

The number of my buttons that were pushed in just these few sentences is absolutely astounding. Due to that, and due to my inability to leave well enough alone, I'm responding now, and then looking to find a way to put a thread on ignore.

You seem to be under the completely irrational notion, that I have to prove your case for you (this is absolutely nutty to me.). I am sorry, but no court in the land works like that. It's your duty to present evidence for your position, not mine.

First, I wasn't aware this was a court room. Oh, wait, it's not. It's not even formal debate. If someone tells you something, you contest it, and then they tell you how to find it, that's usually enough for this level of discussion.

Second, the information was presented to you just short of a clickable link. You refused to accept it. Twice. It was presented to you as a bald fact before that. Instead of doing the obvious search to countermand that bald fact, you chose to challenge its veracity. Then came the discussion of how to find it, which you rejected.

Now, you refuse to accept it on the grounds that someone got fed up with your rejection of reality, and became hostile over it.

And I'm supposed to worry about your sympathies? I am usually a halfways decent person. I'm not perfect, I admit, and right now you're getting my bad side. But I'm definitely not worried about getting the sympathy of some one who has apparently just arrived on this planet, skipping out on the attending of schools in this country (which teach about these scholarships), and skipping out on general knowledge, and then challenging people to prove what they already know.

While I am not on your side, I am not against it. But because of your hostility, I have very little sympathy. NOW, you know what a minority feels like. Congratulations! You know what it feels to be on the other side.

Woohoo! Yay! I officially have permission to sympathize with any minority when they feel oppressed! Should I print this out, and put it in my wallet, to present as a sympathizer ID card? Hang it on my wall like an earned certificate? Please pardon me, I have to make plans for this award.

I don't know what else to say...there are two sides to every argument, but you are completely unwilling to see the other because of your own tribulations. Just as a lot of white people see blacks whining about their misfortunes, it is extremely easy to see the same on your side.

I do listen to other people's issues. They feel oppressed, held down, because they're not a white male. Is it possible that I have more opportunities than I'm actually aware of simply because I am? Yes. I admit that.

On the flip side, I make every effort that I can to include people outside of my genetic heritage. If I ever find my mind drifting back towards habits my parents tried to place in me (they are very bigoted people), I correct those thoughts, and remind myself of how wrong they are. The only pre-judgement that occurs is the kind of "I know Jane, she's trustworthy, and she tells me Janet is trustworthy, so she probably is" and the other side "I know John, he's a lying scumbag, chances are good he's only going to introduce me to others like him".

Now, you tell me I'm unwilling to see other people's point of view. Without knowing anything about me other than I am a white male, you have determined my entire personality makeup. The people around me would get a kick out of that statement from you, since I'm the one most likely to find a way to justify other people's behavior, even when it would seem completely unjustifiable.

So, congratulations, now you know what it feels like to be a bigoted jerk. Easy way to judge someone, isn't it?

[Sylvia727]

Typically, when someone wants to prove a point, they don't tell the people they are trying to convince to "google it" themselves. I asked for some examples.

The only evidence I have seen so far is that whites are excluding non-whites...and that is what the United States has done for most of it's history to minorities.

Actually, you just asked what we were talking about. I told you that (a) it was very easy to find out, and (b) if you were too lazy/busy to do your own googling, I summed up the answers for you. For you to place the responsibility of searching for these scholarships on me is a bit silly, actually. I referred merely to their existance, not to any specifics. If you doubted their existance, 60 seconds on a search engine would have cleared that up for you. And actually, affirmative action is such an integral part of the higher education system in the USA that I didn't think anyone could be completely unaware of it. Somehow, you managed to do this. I have no idea how.

Then you cannot complain about a perceived wrong to you if you are perfectly willing to inflict it on another....we call that hypocrisy.

I am NOT willing to inflict it on another, as I have said several times before. But if others are already inflicting it on me, and refuse to stop, then why shouldn't I join in? Participation in a broken system will benefit me more than bearing the brunt of a broken system. It's obvious that I can't fix the system myself, and I can't find much reason to believe enough other people are willing to help me. So yeah, I'm going to give up on the best solution and go for second best.

Mighty hostile aren't we? <snip> All I asked for was evidence. And I don't know what rational person tries to prove a point and then tells the person they are trying to prove it to, to prove their case for them.

I did prove it for you. I told you where to look, and told you what you would find. Not to the level of a formal debate, true, but I hardly left you stranded. And I mislike your implication that I am irrational. I don't call you names on here, and I would appreciate the same courtesy in the future.

But you have proven my point why minorities feel that they must have these things. Hostility towards them.

Nobody on here has been hostile towards minorities, only towards bigots. It's hardly the fault of the minorities that they are benefiting from institutionalized racism.

So, I think the WHAM scholarship proved it's point. There is a double standard. THAT is what I have a problem with. <snip> We get rid of all physical qualifiers and only offer scholarships based on ability.

Exactly. The WHAM scholarship was trying to provoke a reaction, and they succeeded rather violently. And I think the only fair solution is to offer scholarships based on ability or need. While people should be able to give their money exclusively to the little green men from Mars if they want, at this point I feel there is too much racism in all directions.

NOW, you know what a minority feels like. Congratulations! You know what it feels to be on the other side.

First of all, Pedersen is never to going to know what it feels like to be a minority, or a woman, or the opposite sexual orientation, or the opposite dominant hand, or to be tall instead of short, or whatever, because he's never going to be any of the above. He may be able to say, "This situation is somewhat similiar to this situation", but the patterns of bigotry are far too large for anyone to compare themselves as equivalent to another pattern.

Secondly, you assume that knowing discrimination is equal to walking a mile in a minority's shoes. I have a black friend whose experiences with race are overwhelming positive. Most of her neighbors and friends were black, and the only experience she had with differences in race came with her shiny new scholarships. This is highly anecdotal, as most minorities by far experience discrimination, but it does prove that not 100% are discriminated against. Nor do 100% of minorities define themselves by racism against them, as you seem to assume that the experience of minority can be entirely summed by discrimination.

Thirdly, you seem to have an attitude that Pedersen is against minorities somehow. That he wouldn't have cared about their plight if something similiar hadn't happened to him once. I find that incredibly offensive.

I don't know what else to say...there are two sides to every argument, but you are completely unwilling to see the other because of your own tribulations.

I'm perfectly willing to see your side of the argument, if you would present it in a polite and respectful manner. I actually don't know what your side is; I seem to have missed it somehow. All I know is that you disapprove of the research techniques used by two different people in this thread, and that you have interpreted their words as hostile.

[Boozy]

The number of my buttons that were pushed in just these few sentences is absolutely astounding. Due to that, and due to my inability to leave well enough alone, I'm responding now, and then looking to find a way to put a thread on ignore.

To my knowledge, there is no way to put a thread on ignore. You'll just need to exercise self-restraint.

[MystyGlyttyr]

Yo, okay, whoa, time out. Far be it from me to be the voice of reason and the person to BREAK UP a fight, but I think everybody needs to take a step back, deep breath, and re-focus. Even I'm reading this thinking "This is getting just a little bit too hostile."

Obviously (at least to me), there's some deeper rooted issues to each of you that this thread content seems to be exacerbating. You're taking your own issues and experiences and projecting them in such a way that it's starting to feel a little too personal. That's not a bad thing, it's perfectly normal. Getting your own feelings into play when you're arguing for your side is actually good, so long as you can control them.

Like has been mentioned, this is the purpose the scholarship WHAM thing was created for, to get people talking, and possibly to get them inflamed and get them hashing out things. That's what's happening here and, as is almost always the case on matters of discrimination, it's getting too real.

Here's the thing...EVERYONE has been discriminated against. You name a subset of humanity, and there's at least one vocal bastard who hates it. I've been picked on for being white, for being female, for being asexual, for being autistic, for being a pro wrestler, for being red-haired, for going to a certain school; hell, I've been picked on for walking around barefoot.

Is some discrimination uglier than others? Well, I don't know. Some black people can get called the N-word and laugh it off. Some gays can see Will & Grace and get mortally offended by it's existence. I get called a bitch for choosing to be muscular and mean and it doesn't bother me, but being called a bitch for my genetics hurts like hell. It depends on the person and the situation.

Basically, all I'm saying is don't assume. Everyone's got their pains and their demons. The WHAM scholarship is just a way for some people who feel they've been slighted to try and make people notice their's. That's all.

[Boozy]

Good points, Mysty.

I'll admit, the tone has become somewhat hostile. Its fine from a Site Rules perspective (there have been no complaints or ad hominem attacks that I've seen) but its not very conducive to a rational discussion.

This issue elicits strong reactions from people. For minorities, I think its hurtful to hear a white man in America to say he's experienced and understands discrimination when the road to equal rights for blacks has been so long, arduous, and paved with blood. And the journey is not over yet.

I can also understand how hurtful it can be for white people to have their concerns so quickly dismissed.

With that said, I stand by my original position that whites don't understand exactly how privileged they are. They remember every "cracker" comment, or every instance of affirmative action that didn't work out in their favour, and forget that their lives have otherwise been made far easier due to the colour of their skin. That's the catch-22 of white privilege; its very existence means that you don't necessarily notice it if you are white.

[Zyanya]

The fact remains that many parts of the US are still a white patriarchal society, though in some situations and places white folks are the minority and are treated badly.

Fixed that for you.

[Zyanya]

But you will not get very far arguing that you are unfairly monitored because of your white skin. This is something that minorities live with every day of their lives.

That makes it right?

[BlaqueKatt]

For the record, what black-only/female only scholarships are you guys talking about?

so you've never heard of the united negro college fund?

[Zyanya]

so you've never heard of the united negro college fund?

Based on the screenname, I'm sure he (she) is very aware of it and several others like it.

[ebonyknight]

so you've never heard of the united negro college fund?

As I said before.....

Like the UNCF. They do not offer "black-only" scholarships. They offer scholarships to historically black colleges and universities (HCBUs). Anyone can qualify (for non-raced based criteria) as long as they want to go to a "member" school.

[Seshat]

If I had the time, patience, and US local knowledge to do so, I'd probably sit down and do the study I'm about to outline. Failing the time and the US local knowledge, I'll just suggest it.

1. Pick any university (or other desirable institution that's nominally 'equal opportunity').

2. Arbitrarily create a catchment area for the university. Make that catchment area by selecting each of the neighbouring equivalent universities, and marking the halfway point between the two. Join the dots, extending the lines to the borders of the USA where appropriate.
NOTE: the reason I specify 'equivalent university' is to prevent the ghetto effect from affecting the study.
(It would probably be informative to do the same with 'equivalent or better', and compare the two sets of results.)

3. From population details, figure out the racial, cultural, gender, sexuality, poverty, disability, disadvantage, advantage, (etc) makeup of the catchment area.

4. Do the same for the university.

5. Do the same for the scholarships offered and granted. If you feel like it, rate the scholarships based on ease of application, ease of finding out about it, amount the scholarship pays, and anything else you can think of that matters to you.

If the population details for the catchment and the population details for the university are within a standard deviation or so - YAY! The university either doesn't need their intake adjusted to make up for disadvantage/advantage, or their adjustments are working.

If the population details for the catchment and the population details for the scholarships are within a standard deviation or so - YAY! The scholarships either don't need adjustment or their adjustments are working.

If the population details aren't within a reasonable deviation, then something needs to be adjusted.

And yes, if there's a shortage of rich hetero white males and there are 'affirmative action' programs in place, maybe the university or scholarships need to try scaling back the affirmative action programs.

If there's a shortage of poor white hetero males, maybe the poverty affirmative action programs need to make sure they're not discriminating against hetero white males.

If it's just about anything else, there's probably an affirmative action program for them that needs to tweak how it works.

[powerboy]

Have to be extremely careful around women, too. I've had accusations of sexual harassment levelled at me. When I reported the reverse? I was told to suck it up, and deal with it.


I'm male, I'm not a pedophile, and I'm not a rapist. I get tired of being viewed that way by idiots who know nothing else about me other than having seen me once.

I'm a white male. And that makes me into some sort of demon. And that, too, I'm tired of. I'm a nice guy. But I have to be watched, monitored, and controlled, because I my skin is fair, and I have a penis.

I am in the same boat as you. I hate being viewed as rapist or an pedophile, because I am around a woman or a child is standing around me.


Do I expect things to be handed to me, because I am a white male? No, I would rather work my ass off to get it.