Deaf vs deaf

[Ginger Tea]

I'll get to why I've posted this in clash of cultures, it feels like the best place to put it anyway.

As I am not registered at CS I can not post in smileyeagle's "If my mother..." post, but having said that, most of what I would say would be better off in fratching anyway.

First, the Grandfather is not a very nice man, not much of a news flash that now is it?

Second, not so long after moving back down here I took a short class on deaf awareness as a prelude to a much longer level one in BSL, just to see if I wanted to persue it as a second language. Most take the course as they are or will be working with members of the Deaf community or have a family member who is Deaf and are learning BSL in the evening as their child/nephew/niece etc are learning in the classroom. Whereas I was learning it as a second language much like others would take French.

The short course was good for me even if I chose not to take the full course, I did in the end, but due to family circumstances towards the year end flunked out and have not chosen to resit the first year 5+ years on. I did take the exam as I had paid for it, just to prove to myself I would fail it and not have it hanging over me as a "what if...?"

There were a few distinctions made between Deaf and deaf (hence putting this in clash of cultures), Deaf people, I was told, do not see themselves as disabled, but as a linguistic minority and those that become deaf due to old age or deafened due to loud noises etc, rarely if ever take classes in sign language as they are too used to verbal communication and rely on turning the volume up on the TV, hearing aids and having people just damn shout at them when they speak.

Minicoms and Relay services were meantioned but as technology has come up in leaps and bounds I found that Minicoms used circa 2004 were akin to something from the 80's, yet we had devices like the Amstrad em@iler a combination of telephone and basic email system, that could have easily been turned into a dedicated IM system with more than a few lines of LCD display, bad move there mr. Sugar.

But I don't know if people who go deaf or become deafened use Relay services or if they are the exclusive domain of Deaf users, not by way of discrimination saying "you were not born Deaf so you can not use this service" more "I'm set in my ways and can speak even if I need a great big grammaphone trumpet to my ear to hear.", so I don't see Gramps hanging up on someone who once had good hearing, as I can't say if anyone would use such a service.

I know my father was going slightly deaf as the TV used to be up a fair bit, CEEFAX page 888 wasn't available for every program and even if it was, I was the only one to use it, to see how good it was with multiple people talking or lengthy dialogue.

I turn subtitles on for some DVD's, especially those set in forign countries and had to watch the first 20 odd minutes of the DaVinci Code again as they didn't auto subtitle the french dialogue, although some films just say "speaks French"

"Speaks French" !?!, now I feel like I'm a linguistic minority, a french speaker would know what is being said and it sure as hell isn't fluff like "Quasont Baguette" and I don't buy that it is to help us relate more to the main character because s/he doesn't speak the language either, I don't speak Klingon yet they subtitled that.

Which gets me back to my initial interview with the course leaders for BSL, I assumed it was a semi modern language and international, I never knew it was centuries old and as such varied from country to country just as English is different to French, Spanish or German etc. and commented that probably more people speak Klingon than Esparanto and she seemed to hint iir that either probably eclipse BSL.

[Andara Bledin]

"Speaks French" !?!, now I feel like I'm a linguistic minority, a french speaker would know what is being said and it sure as hell isn't fluff like "Quasont Baguette" and I don't buy that it is to help us relate more to the main character because s/he doesn't speak the language either, I don't speak Klingon yet they subtitled that.

Now I have to go post a thread in the "Hate" forum about sloppy/lazy subtitling (if there isn't one already).

^-.-^

[Hyena Dandy]

"Speaks French" !?!, now I feel like I'm a linguistic minority, a french speaker would know what is being said and it sure as hell isn't fluff like "Quasont Baguette" and I don't buy that it is to help us relate more to the main character because s/he doesn't speak the language either, I don't speak Klingon yet they subtitled that.

But that I think was the point. It was made for people who don't know what they're saying. The filmmaker doesn't want you to know what's going on. So naturally, he wrote the dialog in French, because nobody in the WORLD speaks that. :O

[telecom_goddess]

Assuming BSL is British Sign Language, I guess it would be different from ASL -- American Sign Language? In what ways is it different I wonder....I took ASL in college many years ago.

[Andara Bledin]

There are about 90+ dialects of sign language around the world, with something like 5 main branches. I would imagine that some of the more basic concepts are pretty common across them, while others would be vastly different due to how the cultures developed and the phrases and customs within each one.

^-.-^

[Ginger Tea]

2 vs 1 handed finger spelling is the only thing I can think of without doing a thorough search, watching the Nick Cage Bankock Dangerous last week, I noted that their sign language is very similar, either A> it was once part of the British Empire, B> It had not developed it's own sign language and had adopted BLS, or atleast the signs I recognized.

It would be nice if sign language was a single global language, but we even have regional variations for signs and a 2nd sign language called Makaton used in some special schools.
My mum had to learn basic Makaton for work and when I was up visiting once she asked if I could sign something to see how similar it was, it was as similar as a cat to a refrigerator.

dusting off my unused 6 year old knowlege
Two fists right pounding onto left = G
Right fist in a circular motion over left fist, with little finger extended = Grey
'G' Sign with right fist 'Exploding' to an open palm = Gold
Silver is similar to gold but with an exploding little finger extended fist (like grey)

Job
both palms aligned as a cross, left paralell to body palm facing in, right palm facing to the left with a rocking/sawing motion

Black or one variation, which may also be used as a racial slur, as we were told not to use one black to describe someones skin tone is a closed right fist rubbing down the face, similar if not the same to when Jay-z says "half a mil for bail cos I'm African." as in the video he does this hand gesture.

Cat
both hands in a claw shape facing the signer go across each cheak as if to denote whiskers

Minicom
using the thumb/little finger telephone shape that is international even for non sign users held over the other hand mimicing typeing on a keyboard

I should google video's but one time RNID (Royal National Institute for the Deaf) was contacting alot of sign websites to remove copyrighted line drawings, so who knows what I would find video wise.

And saying "Sign Language" with numerouse countries doing their own, I might end up with ASL without knowing it rusty as I am.

There are two signs for holiday, one with both hands almost as a salute moving away from the head, the other, holding both middle fingers out and spinning the hands horizontally, but that looks too much like Fuck you and were told not to use it, although Captain Dickhead chose to remember that one for holiday, not that he took the class he borrowed one of my smaller dictionaries.

Again the dictionaries I had and the hand outs sometimes clashed with the sign, mine were developed and published by a Middlesborough school and they also did a song book which I didn't get till after the class ended, colours were not grouped together, so If I wanted to learn colours I would have to hop back and forth untill I actually took the course and got a colour chart and later in I got a photographic dictionary called 'Start Sign' by the RNID which grouped colours countries and similar catagories together.

Animated gifs ahoy http://www.britishsignlanguage.com/words/list.php

From Wiki

In 1815, an American Protestant minister, Thomas Hopkins Gallaudet, travelled to Europe to research teaching of the deaf. He was rebuffed by both the Braidwood schools who refused to teach him their methods. Gallaudet then travelled to Paris and learned the educational methods of the French Royal Institution for the Deaf, a combination of Old French Sign Language and the signs developed by Abbé de l’Épée. As a consequence American sign language today has a 60% similarity to modern French Sign Language but is almost unintelligible to users of British Sign Language.

It also lists Thia as an ASL derivitive, so we do share a few signs as I got job and one or two others, but having said that, with each new word it could filter in unaltered to numerouse lnaguages eg Fax Machine could be introduced globally instead of locally, so you could atleast get that sign when abroad.

[Andara Bledin]

dusting off my unused 6 year old knowlege
Two fists right pounding onto left = G
Right fist in a circular motion over left fist, with little finger extended = Grey

I know the basic ASL alphabet, which is all single-hand for the letters themselves, which sounds a lot easier than any two-hand combination for a single character.

And I seem to recall that "black" was the right index finger tracing the eyebrow, with "grey" being the same motion with the hand in the "g" shape. "Red" and "pink" were similar, but indicating the lips. "Blue" was a "b" with a general handshake. It seems that "green," "yellow," and "purple" use the same method.

Oddly, "grey" can also be both hands open, palms toward the body, and moving back and forth, with the fingertips passing between one another, which is a lot more trouble than a "g" tracing an eyebrow.

"Brown" and "tan" also use the initial letter positions with the hand drawing down the right cheek.

"Orange," however, is a squeezing fist in front of the chin, which seems odd to me.

^-.-^

[Ginger Tea]

the gif dictionarry lists ginger as a different sign than I was shown, iir it was tapping both fists together like a double tapped G.

I also found out via the RNID book about Sign Names, our tutor never indicated to us by finger spelling our names he would point sometimes I would sign which between me and the guy next to me, in hindsight we should all have been given or chosen a sign name so we could all be clearer who's attention we were meant to get without being verbal.

and yes Ginger Tea was my sign name going by the double tapped G and lifting a cup to the lips the Tea was chosen instead of the letter as it sounded better and Ginger is my hair colour.

Orange is a squeezed fist also, well not a closed fist but more like a clawed hand, but it was facing out with the arm out like the vulcan pose, but with a different hand gesture obviously
One sign for yellow involved flicking the middle finger to the head, needless to say I didnt use that sign for yellow much in conversation.

I had to explain to Captain Dickhead countless times that you must get the attention of the person you wish to communicate with, sometimes I would look up from my book to find he is already midway through a phrase he is trying to learn from the book I lent him and the fact that you 'listen' with you eyes seemed lost on him given the fact I was not even looking at him when he started. Many atime I would sign 'again' first and midle finger together in an up down up down motion kinda like how you might waggle a finger going no.

I used to write in english what I wanted to learn, change it to the BSL grammer then practice the phrase.
eg You Name What makes sence in sign but looks wrong written, but it isnt a word for word language

[PepperElf]

to be honest my bf & i like subtitles too, even though we're both hearing.


and relays... i think sometimes they're going out of style because of texting. which can be bad when you don't realize the person you're trying to call is deaf. (had that happen at work)

[Andara Bledin]

Speaking of that, my boyfriend and I regularly watch everything with subtitles on. It's just easier when you have cats, a very noisy air conditioner, two computers, and a couple of fans running to keep the apartment cool.

^-.-^

[smileyeagle1021]

and relays... i think sometimes they're going out of style because of texting. which can be bad when you don't realize the person you're trying to call is deaf. (had that happen at work)

not as much as you'd think... a lot of hearing people, even younger ones, prefer relay to texting, for a few reasons. First, it is a lot faster (simply because we can type a hell of a lot faster than they can respond by text), second, those who are born deaf often times learn ASL before they learn English, so it is a second language for them, and a lot of hearing people like having a relay operator who is trained in how to translate written ASL (even when writing in English many who were born deaf will using the same syntax and grammar as ASL) into spoken English.

Also, businesses don't accept text messages as a general rule.