The Duggars (and others like them)

[BlaqueKatt]

Career mom who picks her 2 kids up from daycare at 6 30, rushes home to cook and clean, and is passed out exhausted in bed at 11? Great choice! A stay at home mom with more than 3 kids?!? You're an embarrassment to the woman's lib movement and you should be ashamed of your lifestyle.

I was a SAHM for the first two years of my son's life(then his father and I divorced and he got custody)-you would not believe how many women were just shocked that I didn't immediately return to work, and kept telling me I was making a horrible mistake. Thing is the women that were telling me this saw their children as a burden, they were quick to shuttle them off to daycare, never saw their first steps, or heard their first word, and were constantly hiring babysitters so they could pretend to still be single and go out partying every night.

I want to know when "pro choice" became "yay abortion!"

about the same time they stopped releasing the morbidity and mortality rates for abortion-sure you can get the demographics, but how many deaths or injuries, latest figures released are from 1988(20 years old)-wonder if that has anything to do with the fact that the folks at the CDC responsible for tracking and releasing the data all work in the abortion industry(either owning or working in a clinic)-I highly recommend the book "lime 5-exploited by choice"---it actually changed me from pro-choice to pro-life(with a caveat for proper sex ed including how to prevent pregnancy), it's written by a man that assists women in abortion malpractice cases, and has some horrific stories-an entire section on women raped during abortion procedures, a girl who had her intestines removed during a suction abortion, and many others far worse. It is not the "totally safe and harmless" procedure women are led to believe.

[Zyanya]

The ovaries and uterus are not like tonsils, appendix and wisdom teeth, serving no real purpose in the body and so, becoming redundant through evolution. They are parts of the female anatomy meant specifically for procreation, and the ovaries are filled with thousands of eggs, so it seems odd to say the female body was not designed to bear multiple children.

Try reading the link and addressing all the information provided. 1 in 74 women DIE in childbirth. No, the female body was not designed to bear child after child. Each child puts considerable wear and tear on the female body, including permanent liver and kidney damage and loss of necessary vitamins and minerals.

I am sorry for your own personal circumstances, but why should this woman be vilified just because she has been able to have multiple births without consequences so far? As I said, if there are health consequences, shouldn't that be her choice?

It is her choice. However, women like her are part of a movement that wishes to take the choice away from women such as myself. That is why I vilify their movement.

They are not the ones contacting the press. The press is coming to them. They see it as an opportunity to try to show the world that they really are not freaks to be feared. Unfortunately, people will choose to believe what they wish. I just find it so funny that the world is so threatened by the choices this family has made.

I am threatened by the philosophy they espouse, as it involves me, a woman, being nothing other than a mother. Thank you, but I am capable of making my own decisions and do not need to be under a man's guiding hand.

So what if they are raising a brood of Christian soldiers? What is the worst thing that can come of it? We have an army of children who have been raised with respect for the law and country and with an attitude of respect for others.

Who wish to enforce their beliefs in schools, ban birth control, prevent women from seeking higher education, etc...

So what if they subscribe to the credo of "JOY" (Jesus, Others, You)? what's the worst that can happen with putting God and others before yourself? Heaven forbid we end up with a gaggle of kids who are putting others first

Perhaps you should actually research the philosophy they subscribe to, because that certainly is not the whole of it. I discussed some of the BS they believe in my earlier post. They are dominist. They wish everyone in the US to have to follow their religious beliefs, and to that end are pushing to get their philosophy as part of school curriculum in violation of the separation of church and state. http://www.pfo.org/evol-fad.htm

Which is a factual argument. These children are not allowed to have lives outside the family and the girls take on the roles of mother for their younger siblings early because their mother simply doesn't have the time. The female children are being 'trained' differently than the male children, such as encouraging them away from higher education.

They follow the teachings of Bill Gothard, the man who thinks cabbage patch kids should be banned because they can cause problems in childbirth. He is a classic dominist who is of the belief if he can't control the world by convincing people to believe his way he will then breed people to believe his way.

The reason they don't adopt is that Gothard teaches that adopted children inherit the severe sins of their natural parents and must be properly brainwashed. He demands that adult children get their parent's permission to marry and that married children should continue to obey and be dependent on their parents. Women are to obey men and should not work outside the home.

And he is trying to make his bullcrap implemented in public schools under 'Character Education Legislation'. Any disagreement with him is the 'sin of witchcraft'.

[Zyanya]

I was a SAHM for the first two years of my son's life(then his father and I divorced and he got custody)-you would not believe how many women were just shocked that I didn't immediately return to work, and kept telling me I was making a horrible mistake. Thing is the women that were telling me this saw their children as a burden, they were quick to shuttle them off to daycare, never saw their first steps, or heard their first word, and were constantly hiring babysitters so they could pretend to still be single and go out partying every night.

I am a working mom, and you would not believe how many women are just shocked that I don't stay home with my kid and keep telling me I am making a horrible mistake. Thing is, these women who keep telling me this don't bother parenting their kids even if they do stay home with them all day. Their kids are some of the most over-indulged entitled brats I have ever seen. They let the TV raise their kids while they do their own thing.

about the same time they stopped releasing the morbidity and mortality rates for abortion-sure you can get the demographics, but how many deaths or injuries, latest figures released are from 1988(20 years old)-wonder if that has anything to do with the fact that the folks at the CDC responsible for tracking and releasing the data all work in the abortion industry(either owning or working in a clinic)-I highly recommend the book "lime 5-exploited by choice"---it actually changed me from pro-choice to pro-life(with a caveat for proper sex ed including how to prevent pregnancy), it's written by a man that assists women in abortion malpractice cases, and has some horrific stories-an entire section on women raped during abortion procedures, a girl who had her intestines removed during a suction abortion, and many others far worse. It is not the "totally safe and harmless" procedure women are led to believe.

Safer to get a first trimester abortion than it is to go through childbirth. And no one has ever called abortion totally safe and harmless. It's a medical procedure, and as any/all doctors will tell you, no medical procedure is perfectly safe. People die getting their teeth cleaned.

And the book you cited is a load of junk, it's made up entirely of fictional or severely dramatized stories by people out to make money by suing. The simple fact that it claims abortion centers are unregulated is proof enough that it is a load of hogwash. Gad, it actually cites the throughly disproven link between breast cancer and abortion and calls it a 'fact'.

www.imnotsorry.net

Try finding some real stories by women who have actually had abortions.

[Zyanya]

On a semi related note, this is what I don't understand about my fellow pro-choicers. It's like, we're all for your right to choose, as long as you choose the type of lifestyle that the rest of us can all be proud of. Career mom who picks her 2 kids up from daycare at 6 30, rushes home to cook and clean, and is passed out exhausted in bed at 11? Great choice! A stay at home mom with more than 3 kids?!? You're an embarrassment to the woman's lib movement and you should be ashamed of your lifestyle.

Have as many kids as you want.

Don't raise them as part of a bullshit philosophical movement aimed at taking over and forcing your religious beliefs on the world.

That might just get folks like me to thinking you are an idiot.

[MadMike]

That might just get folks like me to thinking you are an idiot.

I'm not sure if this was directed to the person you replied to, or if you just mean "you" as people in general. If it's the former, I feel the need to point out that we don't attack other members, even on this board where the rules are a lot more relaxed. If it's the latter, then no worries. Still, if you could make things a little more clear in the future, we'd appreciate it.

[Amethyst Hunter]

So what if they are raising a brood of Christian soldiers? What is the worst thing that can come of it?

One word: THEOCRACY.

Dominionists and their ilk DO NOT see it as raising a bunch of happy Godly people. This is not some friendly hymnal Onward Christian Soldiers deal. They literally want to raise armies that will take over this country and others, by force if necessary (and don't kid yourself that there aren't any out there who would love nothing more than to fire off a few rounds of ammo - or worse - at the groups of people they hate), and forcibly convert and/or kill those people they deem unfit. It's one thing to be uber-religious in one's chosen faith; it's quite another to use that religion in order to scheme your way into power for the express purpose of altering law and order to all but a select few's disadvantage. That is exactly what the Quiverfull movement is designed to do: overwhelm everyone by sheer numbers of brainwashed foot soldiers.

And for any Christians out there, don't kid yourself into thinking that you'd be spared in such a theocracy just because you call yourself Christian. If you aren't the "right" kind of Xtian by dominionist standards, you'd be lined up right on the firing block along with the rest of us.

[Ree]

Those ideals mentioned by several members may well be the ones espoused by some of the extreme fundamentalists and by Bill Gothard, and this family may well subscribe to some of those beliefs, but in any of the materials I have read about this family, or which have been written by this family, it has always been about their own personal choice as a couple and a family, and their own pro-life stance, rather than them trying to tell the rest of the world that they must do the same.

Why is it any better that those with pro-choice opinions are allowed to speak their piece unchecked, but someone with strong anti-choice opinions must stay silent?
The pro-choice people are saying she is wrong to be having all these children and are forcing their own beliefs of birth control and abortion onto them, yet when it is suggested that the reason they are having all these children is because they belong to a group who want to eliminate the choice of birth control and abortion, then that becomes a major invasion of your rights?

Double standard?

As Juniormintz said, and I paraphrase, it seems to be a freedom to choose as long as you don't choose on the side of pro-life.

[CancelMyService]

I mean, it's easy to say that they're just a nice little family that enjoys having babies or whatever, but there's just something so........cult-like about the family that creeps me out. The whole "we'll have as many babies as God wants" thing just shows an alarming level of brainwashing. No it won't be "as many as God wants", it will be as many times as you continue having unprotected sex with a woman who's spent 11 years of her life pregnant. Sure, it's their choice and it doesn't personally offend me, but seeing the vacant Stepford Wife glaze in her eyes hardly suggests a lot of clear thinking going on.

Also what kind of life are these kids living? Home schooling, made to be basically live in staff to their own home? Even if there wasn't any religious overtones just being one of 18 kids who's lives get put on TV has got to mess with their minds on some level. What's it like to be one of those kids who's nearing puberty/adolescence and want to talk about life with mom or dad only to have to take a number because you have like 5 siblings who need diaper changes. Imagine being a teenager and going around in those Little House on the Prarie outfits the whole family wears. We all know how mean kids can be, with that kind of ammo there's no way they can lead any substance of what anyone would consider a normal life.

People have mentioned the "well at least they aren't on government assistance". well other than the implied racism of that statement (the stereotype of the token black woman on welfare with zillions of kids just to get more money), is pimping your God-produced family on several Discovery Channel specials any better? I guess for some it is since it's not taxpayer funded.

The pro-choice people are saying she is wrong to be having all these children and are forcing their own beliefs of birth control and abortion onto them, yet when it is suggested that the reason they are having all these children is because they belong to a group who want to eliminate the choice of birth control and abortion, then that becomes a major invasion of your rights

This question wasn't directed at me but I'd wager it's seen as a major invasion of rights because anti-choice groups tend to want all women to become baby farms for Jesus like the Duggars?

[JuniorMintz]

That might just get folks like me to thinking you are an idiot.

Think what you want, I'm don't really want the approval of narrow minded, uptight people anyway.

I stand by what I said earlier. Pro Choice should mean you are pro CHOICE, not necessarily pro abortion. Make your own choices, and let the Duggars do the same.

People have mentioned the "well at least they aren't on government assistance". well other than the implied racism of that statement (the stereotype of the token black woman on welfare with zillions of kids just to get more money), is pimping your God-produced family on several Discovery Channel specials any better? I guess for some it is since it's not taxpayer funded.

What the hell? Are you serious?

Implied racism?!?

Please tell me that was some kind of weird joke. I'm genuinely not trying to be mean, but the bolded part of the above quote... I just don't get why you'd say that. It makes it sound like there's a chip on your shoulder that's bigger than my ass.

Did I miss something? Was there something posted in this thread that really came off as racist?

[CancelMyService]

Its just the comments made about them not being on welfare/government assistance seemed so out of place, like large families are incapable of supporting themselves. The only thing I could come up with are the tales of people on welfare (which despite being apocryphal always seem to involve minorities) having more kids to get more money from the government.

It came off as so "at least they aren't *those pepole*" to me.

[BlaqueKatt]

Safer to get a first trimester abortion than it is to go through childbirth.

and how do you know this the CDC has not released the morbidity and mortality rates for abortion in 20 years

Try finding some real stories by women who have actually had abortions.

I don't have to I saw them every day volunteering in a crisis pregnancy center that also provided post-abortion counciling. Or I could just ask my 22 year old co-worker who required a hysterectomy after her first trimester abortion after the doctor perforated her uterus 4 times during the procedure, she nearly bled to death on the way to the hospital. Or my sister who can also never have children due to a bad abortion last year.

Don't assume things about people you don't know

and the breast cancer-abortion study was not just one study it was 17 different studies, from 17 different countries all with the same conclusion-the only one that disproved it was one done in the US by The CDC(who has something to gain by lying)

[CancelMyService]

Suggesting the CDC has something to gain by lying doesn't really lend credence to your argument (ie: what do they have to gain by lying?), but here's some non-CDC sources that disprove the link between abortions and breast cancer:

http://www.cancer.org/docroot/CRI/co...ast_Cancer.asp
http://www.nci.nih.gov/cancertopics/...on-miscarriage

and finally http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortio...cer_hypothesis which pretty much illustrates that the "abortions lead to cancer" story is a scare tactic championed by pro-life groups trying to discourage abortions under the guise of informed consent. I guess that's similar to teaching creationism by calling it intelligent design.

There's certainly risks to abortions, just like any medical procedure. Opponents of it shouldn't have to resort to provably wrong FUD instead of providing legitimate counseling and alternatives.

[IDrinkaRum]

As a Catholic, I'm told to "go forth and multiply". I shouldn't be using birth control and my husband shouldn't get snipped. We're encouraged to have as many children we want/need/can economically support. Are Catholics kooks? And yes, there are those Catholics out there who believe they need to build a "Christian Army" too.

CancelMyService - the reason the welfare argument was mentioned is because most "welfairies" (and there are plenty of WHITE people who are welfairies - in my area, it's mainly the whites and Hispanics who are on welfare, not blacks) have large families, and it's not dependent upon race. These people, with a large family, are not on welfare, so those saying they're a drain to the economy isn't 100% correct because they're not taking tax $$ away from those who truly need it.

If the Duggars want more children, I say go for it. There is some research that suggests that women who have large families die younger than those who don't. However, this was done by studying families/women before the advent of "modern medicine" and the use of birth control and the legality of abortion.

[Ree]

They literally want to raise armies that will take over this country and others, by force if necessary (and don't kid yourself that there aren't any out there who would love nothing more than to fire off a few rounds of ammo - or worse - at the groups of people they hate), and forcibly convert and/or kill those people they deem unfit. It's one thing to be uber-religious in one's chosen faith; it's quite another to use that religion in order to scheme your way into power for the express purpose of altering law and order to all but a select few's disadvantage. That is exactly what the Quiverfull movement is designed to do: overwhelm everyone by sheer numbers of brainwashed foot soldiers.

I don't know why people are so worried and getting bent out of shape about this. The likelihood of that happening is pretty darn slim, as evidenced by the huge public outcry against this family, in particular.

[Boozy]

To be fair, Ree, you and I live in a different country and culture than those in the US. There's a reason why people are getting bent out of shape by this.

People in America are right to be worried about the rise of a theocracy. 10 years ago the Christian right took over the Republican party and got Bush elected.

Bush appointed dominionist John Ashcroft as Attorney General, a key figure in the passage of the Patriot Act. The Patriot Act effectively gave the US government the power to strip any US citizen of several basic civil rights.

The Republican party is just now shaking off the theocratic takeover. The country itself may never pull out of the tailspin they're currently in.

US citizens are allowed to criticize the Duggars for being dominionist. That's a political opinion, and all political opinions should be challenged vigorously in a democracy. These opinions have the potential to affect all citizens.

However, while having that many children may be part of that philosophy, I'd leave their reproductive rights out of it. If we don't want the Christian right in our bedrooms, we should stay out of theirs.