The Duggars (and others like them)

[Zyanya]

Interesting. Got a citation for that?

Rapscallion

Yes.

In fact, I already provided it in a previous post.

http://www.pfo.org/evol-fad.htm

Not only that, courts are making kids go to his facilities for 'rehabilitation'.

http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/...rd/general.htm

The man actually has a paramilitary school set up for his teachings.

He wants arranged marriages. In his seminar Gothard says, "I'm firmly convinced that God never intended girls to turn down dates. He intended for their father's [sic] to."

He wrote - Understanding the Biblical Foundations of Marriage. That's some scary cult shit for you.

http://billgothard.com/bill/

Essentially, he wants a return to the biblical principles of -

1 Corinthians 11:3
But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

1 Corinthians 14:34-36
Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

Ephesians 5:22-24
Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.

Colossians 3:18
Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord.

1 Timothy 2:11-15
Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing.

1 Peter 3:1
Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands.

[blas87]

While I am a Christian, I don't see any pastors chastizing women for speaking up at church. Some pastors do marriage counseling (it's cheaper). I don't hear of any pastors throwing the Bible at the wife and saying "You must BOW down to your husband and DO NOT disobey his orders!" or "Women are good for nothing but child bearing".

Those Bible verses are meaningless nowadays, please remember that.

And please remember, as I suggested before, respect!

We childfree folk get awful sick and tired of being chastized for our opinions and lifestyle choice, so why not show some respect and leave people who want large families alone?

Besides, even if Mrs. Duggar was being "forced" into having all these children, she could have gotten away from Mr. Duggar years ago. It's ultimately up to a woman to free herself. If she doesn't want to, then too bad. Obviously, she enjoys things the way they are, and there is no proof he makes her do anything like that.

[AFPheonix]

Maybe not in your denomination. The one I grew up in was apparently far more conservative, as they read the Bible literally and followed the example of the Acts church to the letter.
In some ways it was a good thing, in that people were very keyed into their faith, having communion every week.
In others, it was a shame as women were not to be in positions of authority over men, so women were not allowed to teach except in Sunday School or women's outreach. Even in those cases, women were overseen by a male deacon.
The first service consisted entirely of church members standing up, sharing observations they had during the week, praying with the congregation, and suggesting hymns to sing. Actually it was a really good service. However I as a female could not share any of my observations or request music or whatever, simply because of that one Pauline assertion that women must be silent in church.

Women weren't necessarily discouraged from doing things other than getting married and having kids, although anytime people would ask me what I was studying and I'd tell them, they'd get pretty glassy-eyed. None were interested in science, especially females. That's fine, I'll grant that I'm a nerd. However, there was always a little part of the service close to graduation where the graduates were brought up to say what their evil plans were. I was the only one who didn't say that I was going to get married and have babies. The only one. I suspect it was because my mom brought me up thinking a bit differently than those other girls.

[Myra]

My issue has never been about Michelle, or whatever flavor of Chrisitanity she and Jim Bob enjoy. My issue is with the kids. THEY did not choose to be born into a herd of a family. Through my own personal experience, big families CAN and DO work with the kids still getting to be KIDS. My best friend's parents were both from big (Catholic) families. Her dad was the 7th of 12, and her mom oldest of 8. YES the older ones were expected to help with the younger ones. But every single kid had a relationship with their parents and it remained that way until the parents passed a few years ago on her dad's side. Her mother and siblings all are still very close to their parents.

When I saw Michelle listing each kid on one special, she was trying to say something about each child. When it got to a younger one and she said something like "Well J'kid likes pickles..." it seemed pretty pathetic. Like she was reaching at straws to prove she knows each and every kid. I highly doubt she has much of a relationship with the majority of them. Everything is about her gushing about how children are "God's gift" and how she'll keep having them until God decides different. It's almost like her life revolves around being pregnant and having that baby and once the newness wears off, she passes the baby off to a "buddy" and prepares for another one.

I'm pro-choice. And if a woman chooses to have a bunch of kids, go for it. But think of the kids. What life are you giving them? Because I doubt the sugary depiction of the family that we see on Discovery Health is entirely truthful. I see a happy mom and dad, who get the notoriety they want. But the kids didn't ask for it.

I could be wrong, 90% of this post was speculation on my part. But it's a concern I have, and it's why this family disturbs me.

[Rapscallion]

Is being a sibling in a large family necessarily bad? Sure, the parental affection is spread thinner, but don't you get more from your peers?

Rapscallion

[Seshat]

Who is to say these women need any education on the methods of birth control available

Ouch. And thus, I am exposed as a hypocrite.

I resent and detest religious proselytising - as I tell people who ask, 'religion gets shoved down my throat every time I turn around. If I want to know, I'll go ask.' Besides which, I have done my own comparative religion study, and have found a form of spirituality which suits me.

Okay. Change of plan. If she were a personal friend, I'd make sure she knew birth control was available and where to go for information on it - and leave it at that. I wouldn't push the information on her.

I'd stop it the exact same point I'd want a personal friend to stop a religious discussion with me.

just because we live in a society that has decided birth control is a necessity?

I haven't. My belief is that birth control is a possibility, not a necessity. If someone wants to have as many children as physically possible I'd personally consider them extremely weird - but hey, their life. Their body.

As long as they could look after the children, of course. Since the children aren't party to the decision.

Everyone feels the need to educate them, but nobody wants to look at or validate their opinion that they do not need birth control in their life, as if they are ignorant just because they choose to procreate.

What I said in my post was: if she didn't already have it, I'd provide her with the information.

I have no information on whether she is or isn't ignorant on the topic of birth control; aside from the reported information that she believes the pill can/does cause miscarriage.

If she is deeply anti-abortion, to the point that even the possibility of an induced miscarriage offends her, then I support her choice not to use the pill or an IUD. Both may cause miscarriage. Neither do so as their primary method of birth control, but eggs and sperm are tenacious little sods and sometimes go ahead and ovulate and fertilise and try to implant despite anything we mere humans can do.

And - well, a ruddy great copper thing sitting in the middle of the playground can damage an implanted embryo. Or a hormone dose saying 'shed that uterine lining' can overrule a barely-begun placenta. So yeah. Might.

So even that one piece of information I have about her knowledge or ignorance of birth control just says that she knows the pill exists and is inappropriate for her with her particular religious beliefs.

Who is to say they are not happy with their choice to have children and just be a mother?
Some women just love children and really do love all that comes along with motherhood.

And that's fine. I'm just a bit fanatical about informed choice. I accept that.

(And, being who I am and so not liking the stuff involved in motherhood, I can't wrap my head around anyone liking it. But I can't understand people liking sushi or cross-country skiing either.)

I have chosen to be a mother in another way by providing a home to teen girls in the foster care system.
It's not the same as having my own children, and it is really hard and stressful much of the time, but I do have to say it has its moments.

Which is truly admirable. I bow to you and respect your work.

But if you put yourself on TV, I'm gonna have an opinion on ya. And I think the vapid look in her eyes creeps me the hell out.

Heh. Choosing to be a public figure does have its costs, and one of those costs is that people form opinions about you.

My issue is with the kids. THEY did not choose to be born into a herd of a family.

When I saw Michelle listing each kid on one special, she was trying to say something about each child. When it got to a younger one and she said something like "Well J'kid likes pickles..." it seemed pretty pathetic. Like she was reaching at straws to prove she knows each and every kid. I highly doubt she has much of a relationship with the majority of them.

<snip>

I could be wrong, 90% of this post was speculation on my part. But it's a concern I have, and it's why this family disturbs me.

And here you have a point I agree with.


There are some people, like Ree, who were born to be mothers. They love the process of child-rearing. Of taking this baby, this barely formed personality, and raising them through childhood to becoming an adult who is as healthy and happy and stable as is possible. And the work of being a parent isn't finished even then.

There are also some people who only like babies. Or only like toddlers. Or think babies are squalling and messy and toddlers unpredictable but love primary-school aged children. Or can't stand children until 'you can have a decent conversation with them' but love teenagers.

People who are focussed like that on one stage of childhood should be nurses or teachers or camp counsellors or some other such thing where they can have an endless stream of kids of the age they enjoy and work well with.

However, some people - especially ones who love babies or toddlers - will have kid after kid and essentially 'discard' them once they're past the golden age. Sometimes the older kids end up raising them, sometimes it's Grandma or an uncle or the foster care system. That behaviour is one I strongly disapprove of, for obvious reasons.

And (based solely on Myra's post) given what has been said here, Mrs Duggar might (MIGHT) be one of those people.

[kibbles]

Who is to say these women need any education on the methods of birth control available just because we live in a society that has decided birth control is a necessity?

What happens if the girls don't want to follow in their mother's footsteps; but, because of their upbringing they have no knowledge of birth control options? Don't they need and deserve education?

Any person who is in a sexual relationship and don't want children, birth control is most definitely a necessity.

As for my opinions on the Duggars, it just seems as if the older ones are raising the younger ones..not helping to raise; but, raising and not having a chance to be kids.

[Zyanya]

While I am a Christian, I don't see any pastors chastizing women for speaking up at church. Some pastors do marriage counseling (it's cheaper). I don't hear of any pastors throwing the Bible at the wife and saying "You must BOW down to your husband and DO NOT disobey his orders!" or "Women are good for nothing but child bearing".

In your faith, perhaps.

In other faiths however, well, look at what recently went down with that weird sub-branch of LDS, where the 15 year old girls were being given to 50+ year olds as 4th and 5th wives without having a say in the matter.

I once got stuck sitting next to a freak on an airplane who lectured me until I switched seats that 'women shouldn't be traveling without a male companion'. There are people who believe in those scriptures and Bill Gothard is one of them.

But more to the point...a simple question for you. How many pastors in your church are female?

[powerboy]

This is what is wrong with everybody. We all judge people, based on what the Media says. And no one can say that they have not judged somebody at some point in your life. So what if they want all those children. It is up to them.

[anriana]

This is what is wrong with everybody. We all judge people, based on what the Media says. And no one can say that they have not judged somebody at some point in your life. So what if they want all those children. It is up to them.

There is nothing wrong with having an opinion. And I haven't seen anyone in this thread who seems to have opinions they downloaded from CNN or Fox. The Duggars run a website. They consented to having multiple shows of their lives broadcast on television. That is first-hand evidence they provided the general public with.

[blas87]

To answer your question, there are a lot of female Lutheran pastors. My mother is one of them. Not the pastor of the church we attend, but she went to school for it and she can baptize children and marry people and substitute. I'm sure if the chance arose and a pastor was needed at a Lutheran church in our area, she'd hop on it.

Growing up, as I was forced to go to church and Sunday school every Sunday and we also visited a lot of other Lutheran churches with family and friends, I saw no less than 10 female pastors. Yes, there are more males but more females than any other religion.

I guess I come from a religion with more...leeway. Women are not oppressed, gays are not crucified, and birth control is not frowned upon.

[Princess-Snake]

I'm still a firm believer of the world is becoming over-populated. Anything more than two kids is pushing it in my opinion.

So, do you think that my aunt is "pushing it" because she has four children? Granted, one of them is an adult, but the other three are not even 8 years old yet. A friend of mine is the youngest of three children, so was his mom "pushing it?" My dad is the oldest of four children. So apparantly, Grandma was "pushing it" too. So, if I want to have three or four kids someday, (and I do) am I "pushing it?" I could continue with this list, but I'll stop here.

As for the Duggars, I don't really care how many children they have as long as the kids are healthy, happy, well-cared for, and have an education. (home school, public school, private school, whatever the parents choose) They could have 50 kids for all I care. It's not really anybody's business.

[Myra]

It's not really anybody's business.

That's just it. If these guys were my neighbors, I might say something, but I'd let it go. If they were normal people who valued their privacy, obviously then it wouldn't be my business. But these folks have had something like 5 TLC/Discovery Health specials showcasing the family, parading these children around like circus attractions. To me, that's inviting someone into your home, and inviting both critism and compliments. They probably know this and deal with this. They should, anyway.

That's my two cents.

[Dark-Star]

The downside is that they are pretty much doing this because of a select phrase in a bronze age book that was designed to perpetuate a nomadic tribe.

Rapscallion

I've taken up that very issue with my parents! (background: As the oldest child I get the joy of being the first to hear "why don't you find a nice girl and where are my grandbabies?" )

My argument is simple. The exact instruction was "Be fruitful and multiply". Now what was the setting for this instruction? Oh yes - right after a worldwide disaster had reduced the entire human population to under 20 people.

Fast forward to 2008. World population 6 BILLION and no end in sight.

I think we can put following that command on the back burner for the time being. Don't have to disregard it...but humanity is in no danger of imminent extinction. One out of 100 people could grow up, get married and have kids and there would be plenty of us to go around. We'd even have more breathing room in more ways than one.

[Yfandes]

I have a cousin, raised in a fairly liberal household where her mom worked when the kids were in school. From the time she could talk, any time anybody would ask her what she wanted to be she would reply "A Mommy". She met her husband of 40 years now first when she was 8 (they married at 21). She only has two kids, and would have had more if circumstances allowed. Though I bet she makes fun of the Duggars, I don't know.

I really don't get complaints about how the older kids have to look after the younger kids. Some kids are expected to help look after the family farm, others the family business, others to be "latch-key" kids if the parents have to work. Some are born into single parent families, some into families with a disabled relative who needs looking after.

I'm sure they could all have something to complain about, and may choose differently when they are older, but I don't think every child feels that they are "getting what they need/want" all of the time. I just don't see it as abusive as some do.

Who has an ideal childhood and would that childhood be ideal for everyone?

My mother moved out of state to marry my stepfather when I was 16. I remained in the house alone (or with housemates) to continue high school, and work, look after the house and stuff like that. Years later my mother suffered endless guilt about it that I just don't understand. I learned a LOT of valuable skills in that time that have served me well. It may not have been a conventional choice, but it worked well for us.

Mrs Duggar went to college, I have to assume shes has examined the choices available to her, and chosen this life. Great!!

Now - sending the boys to college and not the girls? That bugs the heck out of me. Raising a tribe to take over so that my rights are legislated against? Wow, they must really love me as a neighbor (in the metaphorical sense of course).