Blaming the man for misguided sex...

[Sleepwalker]

And seriously, the Hunt? Fuck a student, get judged. Don't want to get judged? Find another species. Or get a pack of apologists to follow you around excusing your actions with, well, some twelve year olds ask for it. Jesus. I seriously can't get over you saying that.

[AdminAssistant]

This whole thread is about the automatic assumption by the general public that the man is the one at fault, and this assumption continues to hold, often in the face of evidence to the contrary.

This is not about The Man (tm) being at fault. It's about the responsible adult and person in a position of power being at fault. Even at 17, and a legal adult in this case, she's still beneath him in terms of power. She's still got hormones racing through her system, discovering herself sexually, and all that. As I said before, it does not matter whether or not she initiated it. He had the responsibility to say, No, this is wrong. If he was morally too weak to do that, then he could have reported her for harassment, asked to have her transferred out of his class, etc. I teach at a university, and I'm not allowed to be in a relationship with my students.* We're discouraged from even getting overly chummy with our students.

I was manipulated into a FWB relationship when I was 24. How much easier would it be to get a 17 year old between the sheets?

*Relationships between graduate students and undergrads are allowed but discouraged. However, if I were already in a relationship with an undergrad, I would not be allowed to have anything to do with their grades.

[Greenday]

Ignoring the whole rape thing (which it wasn't) and the whole student-teacher thing (which unless she was having sex with him for grades, isn't an issue to me), this really just seems like a "I had sex with a guy for the wrong reasons, now I regret it so how can I make him pay to make myself feel better?"

[radiocerk]

It isn't about blaming "The Man" is about blaming the person who is supposed to be the responsible authority figure. Teenage girls are ridiculously stupid when they think they're "in luv" (I should know, I was one once), and authority figures shouldn't be taking advantage of that to get a piece of ass.

Yes, the girl was stupid as well, but the teacher should have known better, and shouldn't have been surprised when this happened.

[Greenday]

I feel like I'm reading a different article than everyone else. She definitely did blame the man. I don't see what being an authority figure has anything to do with this case. What did he do wrong (besides cheating)? He clearly stated his intentions. Despite this, she lied to herself and made herself think otherwise. And then she blamed the guy when his words turned out to be true. Then she got revenge because she didn't get what she wanted.

[PepperElf]

You don't know this.

First, you don't know that it was a full year from when she was 16 to 17; it could have been as little as a few months. Since the articles are unclear and in some cases contradictory, I strongly suspect it was within the same school year, so he likely didn't have long to "groom" her.

Second, we don't even know that he did anything particularly special in her case, much less groomed her. For all we know, she went after him. It's her word against his. I have a friend who teaches in a middle school. He has 12-year-old girls coming on to him. He, being who he is, tends to be appalled by their behavior, but to think that she is definitely telling the truth in this case is poor judgment.

That he used a barely-legal student for sex is undeniable, and even he didn't dispute that fact. But can you honestly say for certain that she didn't do the same? The whole story only came out after her father found out about it. I've seen more than a few cases where an overbearing parent has found out about an affair and the child of said parent, usually a girl, then has to claim that she was seduced just to avoid his or her wrath.

This whole thread is about the automatic assumption by the general public that the man is the one at fault, and this assumption continues to hold, often in the face of evidence to the contrary.

It's a bad habit to jump to judgment without the facts, and you can see it in action on this forum over and over and over again. A story will be posted, without all of the facts, and some portion of the crowd will break out the pitchforks and torches and call for vengeance to be rained down upon the alleged perpetrator.

And yet, just about half of the time it comes out that the original story was missing a whole lot of facts and sometimes contains misinformation or outright lies. But by then the damage is done. Most people when faced with such a decision will not change their minds even if it's shown that they were purposefully lied to from the beginning.

Society would be much better served if everybody would set aside their anger and their hatred and at least try to get the facts behind a case before calling for the Hunt.

^-.-^

There's some points in here I really like... and some I'd like to point out.


1) Barely legal. To me that's like saying "barely a virgin". You either are or your aren't. Like sticking a pin in a balloon.

It was also mentioned that the age of consent is really 16? If so then she wasn't even "barely" legal but over a year into being legal. (also is it illegal for college teachers to date students there? i would find that off if say... someone was a returning student and already married or dating...but perhaps that's a differnt topic)

2) "Second, we don't even know that he did anything particularly special in her case, much less groomed her. "

That's an excellent point. Sometimes young people are very sensitive to ANY attention and kindness. One of my classmates in college had a MAJOR crush on a teacher, only to find out that he was "so nice to her" because... he treated his students with kindness... my friend had read more into it than he'd ever intended. The major difference with her and the LW is that the teacher turned her down.

for the LW it's possible in my opinion that... in her growing infatuation, she could have been broadcasting "i'm available - fuck me" vibes to him.

now granted, as i said from the start... he was in the wrong for tapping her well. i don't care about the age difference myself... just the fact that he was her teacher and shouldn't be fucking the students.


3) "This whole thread is about the automatic assumption by the general public that the man is the one at fault, and this assumption continues to hold, often in the face of evidence to the contrary. "

Another wonderful point. I myself was originally thinking "it takes two to tango". ... meaning that yes it was wrong for him to fuck her, but that she was obviously willing.


It was also suggested in an earlier reply that she perhaps changed her mind afterwards and then cried 'foul". now my opinions on that are... if you're legally able to give consent and say "yes" then own up to your own choices. Yes you're allowed to change your mind but... learn to accept responsibility for your own decisions.

as in ... yes that suave man may have dazzled you with attention and swept you off your feet, but don't try claiming (especially if you're a legal adult) that you had no concept of "right" and 'wrong'. admit your own guilt. cos yes, pretending that the older man (or woman) was 100% guilty may make the ego feel better... it's not the truth.

[Rapscallion]

(also is it illegal for college teachers to date students there? i would find that off if say... someone was a returning student and already married or dating...but perhaps that's a differnt topic)

If you are both old enough to give consent, it's between you and the other party. Probably something in a teacher's contract to say don't get caught banging a student, but that's all.

However, I find interesting parallels in this whereby the general acceptance is that the bloke is at fault with the general assumptions about sex - a girl having a one night stand being a slut and the bloke involved is a lucky dog.

Rapscallion

[tropicsgoddess]

The teacher is a a complete sleaze for seducing the student but also the student did have a valid complaint about inappropriate relations with the teacher but with the fact that she complained about it way later seems like she did that to spite him for being seduced and dumped.

[PepperElf]

don't forget the double standard that ... an older man fucking a younger girl (even if she's of age) is a dirty old man, and an older woman who fucks a barely-legal man is just a cougar showing him the ropes.


Kinda like David in "An Education" vs Stiffler's Mom from "American Pie".

[blas87]

Pitchforks? What fucking pitchfork? Why not just stick to using that term when I'm overly conservative about something earth shattering and disturbing.

[Gravekeeper]

The guy's certainly sleezy, but she says it herself right in the article: "I should have put a stop to our relationship then, and vowed never to see Brian Bacon outside the classroom again." -.-

She also has to spend the entire article explaining why she's a naive, vunerable little thing despite being of legal age to consent and why that makes him a bad, bad man. I don't buy it. The guy's a complete sleezy asshole, sure. But it's definately not 100% in his corner as he maintained up front the entire time what it was about. So some of this is her responsibility and smearing the guy publically years after the fact makes me question the motives.

As for the double standard of it always being the man's fault. There are quite a few news storys in recent years in the US where even the accusation, despite being total bullshit and proven total bullshit without a doubt, has totally destroyed some poor guy's life and career. Meanwhile, there was a string of female teachers sleeping with underage male students and I think the only person upset about any of it was the kid's mom. Its a complete double standard. If I recall one of them even ended up marrying the student the moment she got out of jail.

i mean, I remember high school. Teenage girls can be evil. A teenage girl that realises she can destroy a teacher's entire life with just the accusation? Evil. >.>

[blas87]

And just to add that I'm not crying for blood with the pitchfork, I was at one period of time, VERY promiscuous. Although two wrongs don't make a right, I do own up to my own behavior, the signals I sent, and the fact that I consented to everything that happened and that it was partially my fault that guys treated me the way they did. So I would have never had any right to play the "naive" card. While it certainly wasn't right that guys were after me for the wrong reasons, I could have been a hell of a lot smarter and had some more self respect. Fortunately, I got it on my own, and will never be that way again.

And to this day, I don't blame guys for that period in my life. I don't blame myself, but I am willing to own up to who I was at that time, and why guys acted the way they did around me and how they treated me the way they did.

[Ginger Tea]

I wouldn't let my kids around someone who claimed that barely pubescent girls were hitting on them all the time.

The girls are hitting on them and they are complaining about it, not bragging that they are hitting on kids or getting hit on by them.
I would be more worried about my 12 year old comming on to any adult let alone a teacher.

If for example said teacher was from another school, no problems with it if she is over legal age, their is no breach of trust or abuse of power, yes, he's a teacher, but he's not her teacher (if she was at his school but not in any of his classes still off limits).
Or he was the father of her best friend and then ends up her new mum, odd but not illigal.

And I don't know why you brought up incest in another post as an example, incest is incest regardless of age, sex and relationship of both or more parties, this is not incest.

[Hyena Dandy]

I wouldn't let my kids around someone who claimed that barely pubescent girls were hitting on them all the time.

Then you should not let your kids around any vaguely attractive middle school teachers.

At that age, kids are just discovering sex is a thing. They're naturally very excited about it. They're getting biological instincts that they don't understand, but society says they're important adult things. And at that age, well, you see yourself as an important adult person, and you want to do things that important, adult people do. You don't understand it, but you know it exists so you want to do it.

Some parents are responsible, and prepare their kids for what's happening. Or, as in my case, enroll them in classes that will explain the matter. Other parents won't, either because they think that the kids are too young to know about that, or because they don't think its something they need to be informed of. Middle school is also the age where you're developing ideas of what sort of person you want to be. You take cues from what you're exposed to.

There's sex everywhere in our culture. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, if people can be mature about it. But we're not. So while kids see scantily clad, flirtatious women on television, we don't tell them what the flirtation means, or at most we tell them they're not old enough. They see it, they know its something adults do, and they're not old enough to know they're not quite adults yet.

That will result in teachers getting hit on. It happens. Its happened to me, and I'm not even that attractive. Some people find it amusing, some people find it annoying, some people find it disappointing. If you're excited about it, that's a problem. But people who simply say it happens, and are complaining about it or commenting on the fact aren't exactly unsubstantiated.

Basically, kids that age don't know what sex is, they just know it happens. They want to be involved. They shouldn't be, nobody's disputing that, but they do. Its up to the parents to set a good example AND to properly educate their children.

But as a quick glance over CS will show you, some people aren't good parents. So if a teacher claims 12 year old girls are hitting on them, that's probably because they'll do that. Its as much a part of teaching 12-14 year olds as cleaning up pee is for teaching 7 year olds. Its frustrating, stressful, but unavoidable.

[Greenday]

Basically, kids that age don't know what sex is, they just know it happens. They want to be involved. They shouldn't be, nobody's disputing that, but they do. Its up to the parents to set a good example AND to properly educate their children.

I'm going to have to disagree with this since it just isn't factually true. It's one of those blanket statements adults like to make about teenagers that has no real basis. Having just graduated high school less than five and a half years ago, I can say with absolutely certainty that many, many girls know exactly what sex is about. Maybe it's because girls at my high school or in my area are more sexually liberated and we get real sex education, but whatever the reason is, plenty of girls are having sex for whatever reasons work for them and they are happy with it.

And it's amazing how we don't get teen pregnancies and the STD rate was very low.