Social healthcare?

[the_std]

Except that you have, like I said, an ENTIRELY different population, an entirely different social structure and a whole different set of problems. If you want to run the country the way it was run in the 19-effing-20s, then put the population and economy back to the 20s and you might be able to.

[Rapscallion]

You don't need it. You don't have to believe it when your politicians talk of 'my fellow Americans'. You won't need it when you're old and incapable of looking after yourself.

You're just there to service the needs of people with more money than they know what to do with. I don't understand why you accept this.

Rapscallion

[Andara Bledin]

If you want to run the country the way it was run in the 19-effing-20s, then put the population and economy back to the 20s and you might be able to.

Nevermind the fact that the 20s ended in the Great Depression.

Somehow I think that's a pretty good indication of the fact that the way things were done in the 20's led to catastrophic failure and should be avoided.

Oh, yeah. That's part of why we have social security now.

^-.-^

[Gravekeeper]

Ok, so we've gone over "Omigawd it'll FORCE me to see a specific doctor", "Fark you, I got mine" and "FIX OLD, NO NEW". What was the next GOP talking point dribbled out during the attempt at health care reform? -.-

Seriously, I've never seen a group of people so incredibly devoted against their own well being. Your best argument is "Well, the government sucks so they couldn't run it without fucking it up" while repeating the exact reasons half the government told you it won't work? So you don't trust them to run it, but you trust them to tell you why it won't work? >.>

The US government handles a ridiculous amount of complex systems and departments on a daily basis without collapsing under its own supposed incompetence. But you'd rather let people lose everything they have and plummet below the poverty line because one member of the family got sick then let the government take a crack at running it?

You seriously think it could be worse then it already is?

[Andara Bledin]

You seriously think it could be worse then it already is?

I know!

You'd think that these people would figure out, eventually, that taking half a step forward is still better than standing in place and burying your head in the sand or screaming at the heavens.

^-.-^

[the_std]

Unfortunately, a lot of people here fighting for the other side are comfortable. Even if they have seen hardship in the past, they're comfortable now. So yes, for them, it could be worse. And I do admit that it can be hard to see past your own situation, to put yourself in the shoes of other people, but this isn't just your own money. This is the livelihood of your whole damn country... So you have to make the effort.

[Gravekeeper]

My Fellow Americans ( Unless you need something, then get off my lawn )

[Greenday]

And I do admit that it can be hard to see past your own situation, to put yourself in the shoes of other people, but this isn't just your own money. This is the livelihood of your whole damn country... So you have to make the effort.

The shaming route. God, now I feel so bad about wanting to keep what I've earned. Wait, no, no I don't.

You know, there are plenty of people who genuinely need help. The problem is, there are also plenty more people who genuinely need help because they refuse to help themselves. My taxes also go to those people and it makes me sick. There are more than enough freeloaders to go around. Now this thread suggests giving them more reason NOT to continue. I mean, why work for what they can get for free? And their paychecks would be even less if they did decide to work. So where's incentive to make the lazy work?

[Rapscallion]

While I agree that there should be incentive for the unwilling to work, I have to point out that your argument then becomes 'others should die or otherwise suffer if those people don't do what I agree with'.

I couldn't stand that being on my conscience.

Rapscallion

[bara]

The shaming route. God, now I feel so bad about wanting to keep what I've earned. Wait, no, no I don't.

You know, there are plenty of people who genuinely need help. The problem is, there are also plenty more people who genuinely need help because they refuse to help themselves.

I don't think you see what you said here.

People who refuse to help themselves don't genuinely need help. They need a kick in the ass.

[Andara Bledin]

The problem is, there are also plenty more people who genuinely need help because they refuse to help themselves.

Citation required.

If you're going to complain of freeloaders (who we all know are out there), then at least have some concrete data to back up your assertion that it's ok to let 20 people starve so long as that one asshole who could afford food if he wasn't lazy won't get a free ride.

Of course, this entire argument completely ignores the fact that if we give every single person in this country some form of health care to keep them from getting sick, it would cost less than it now costs to let those people get so sick that they go to the hospital on the state's dime.

In 2006, Canada spent about $2600 per capita on health coverage. The US spent about $3100 per capita during that same period, but provided only 2/3 the service. Meanwhile, the people of Canada spent $1100 per capita versus the US citizen's outlay of $3600.

The US government spent more, gave the people less, and then the people still had to spent as much on their own as the Canadian people cost in total to cover what the US government didn't.

How ignorant, selfish, and downright vindictive does a person have to be to fight to have the government continue to pay more than it has to and not help half the country when it could be arranged to cover everybody and cost less?

^-.-^

[Greenday]

Citation required.

If you're going to complain of freeloaders (who we all know are out there), then at least have some concrete data to back up your assertion that it's ok to let 20 people starve so long as that one asshole who could afford food if he wasn't lazy won't get a free ride.

Really? I mean, really? You want "concrete data" on something that is non-quantifiable? Moving on.

How ignorant, selfish, and downright vindictive does a person have to be to fight to have the government continue to pay more than it has to and not help half the country when it could be arranged to cover everybody and cost less?

You know what you just summed up? Some great reasons why getting care from doctors is too expensive. Those bastards sure do overcharge for their services.

[bara]

What doctors charge is just a part of the issue at hand. Its the whole industry being overpriced.

Hospitals charge a hell of a lot for what amounts to little more than bed space. Then the tests, prescriptions, and doctor visits on top of that. Its pretty daunting.

Even pretty much every single first world country can handle healthcare, there is no reason why we cant.

Here is a very informative website regarding healthcare reform.

While Im not sure I agree with everything it says, the statistcs are very good concering un-diagnosed health issues and the number of easy to fix problems turning fatal due to lack of adequate health coverage and high costs.

[Andara Bledin]

Really? I mean, really? You want "concrete data" on something that is non-quantifiable? Moving on.

This article attributes just under 2% of American welfare recipients commit fraud. I guess it's nota s "non-quantifiable" as you thought. Please don't confuse too lazy to find something with that something being unavailable.

When you line that up with 20% of all Americans, not just those eligible for welfare benefits, are going without health care, that whole cry of "I don't wanna pay for fraudsters" comes out more than a little hollow and a whole lot ignorant.

^-.-^

[Nyoibo]

The problem with anything "social" is that it won't work because there is no sense of social responsibility or social conscience.