Social healthcare?

[Rapscallion]

The problem with anything "social" is that it won't work because there is no sense of social responsibility or social conscience.

Your argument here seems to boil down to "We're nasty, so it wouldn't work."

About right?

Rapscallion

[Gravekeeper]

Your argument here seems to boil down to "We're nasty, so it wouldn't work."

Honestly, it appears to be a valid argument if the thread is any indication. >.>

[Andara Bledin]

Honestly, it appears to be a valid argument if the thread is any indication. >.>

Seriously.

You see what the rest of us have to work with, here?

^-.-^

[Nyoibo]

Your argument here seems to boil down to "We're nasty, so it wouldn't work."

About right?

Rapscallion

Yup, basically.

[Rapscallion]

"One nation, indivisible unless money is involved..."

Rapscallion

[Andara Bledin]

"One nation, indivisible unless money is involved..."

More like: "One nation, indivisible from our greed..." >_<

^-.-^

[Crazedclerkthe2nd]

More like: "One nation, indivisible from our greed..." >_<

^-.-^

I think you're both wrong. Today it's more like "Two nations, one of the rich and powerful and another of the peons who serve them."

Unfortunately nation number one is pulling the strings at the expense of most everyone in nation number two.

[Andara Bledin]

Of course, the problem is that it isn't a separate nation, so while N2 is being shoved further and further down, N1 is slowly being dragged down with them.

A healthy, happy workforce is more productive and less costly (even when paying for maintenance) than a sickly, disgruntled workforce. Eventually this system is going to collapse under its own weight because while there may be "plenty more where they came from," that supply is not infinite.

^-.-^

[Gravekeeper]

A healthy, happy workforce is more productive and less costly (even when paying for maintenance) than a sickly, disgruntled workforce. Eventually this system is going to collapse under its own weight because while there may be "plenty more where they came from," that supply is not infinite.

Long term damage is never a consideration. The entire attitude of upper America is basically "Get as much as you can while you can" then when the system does collapse, sit on your pile of money and wait for it to blow over. With capital gains so low, you can earn yet moar money just sitting on your money and waiting. A tactic which, of course, delays economic recovery even further because all of that money isn't being used for anything.

This is why new ideas and new technology can't get any foothold, because the upper crust isn't done milking the old stuff for every last god damn cent yet. ;p

[Mytical]

I've never been 'wealthy', but I have had over $20k in the bank..(before I invested it in a house). I have been dirt poor. The 'where is my next meal coming from, there are cracks in the ceiling we can't afford to fix' type poor..though I've never been homeless. Not counting working on the farm (which started at an early age) and things like paper routes..I held my first 'official' job at 14 (taxes held out, etc). Between work, helping the family, and school I was not ever a steller student..but I did ok.

Even went to the military..where do to a medical problem I was sent home. I wanted to stay, they would not let me. I fought to stay..but was not allowed. Went to college, but ended up having to take two jobs to take care of family..so with 86 credit hours..there went college. So that is an illness that was supposed to be 'terminal', and two jobs. Yeah, I was a lazy bum.

Use to being poor, I bought the cheapest things I could, and never tried to keep up with the Joneses..and moved into the upper lower class. Had a decent job, even if I only made half of national average, and went back to college. Found myself out of a job, taking care of my parents..and my savings poofed quick. My own fault, shouldn't have been such a lazy bum. Should have worked 3 jobs, gone to college at the same time, and cured cancer.

I worked hard, and now I am in the lower lower class bracket. Over come background (being very very poor), health problems, and having the deck stacked heavily against me. Only to have everything taken away. Yeah, just a lazy bum. I can't afford to go to the doctor, thanks to my preexisting condition no insurance will even look at me. Don't qualify for VA because they kicked me out during basic (you have to finish basic to qualify). But hey, to heck with people like me right? We are just lazy bums who wouldn't work at a mattress factory as a mattress tester..right?

Edit : Oh and as for our wonderful government, they are currently messing around with my parents retirement and disability. My dad currently is getting a whole $95 a month because we 'make to much'...

Edit 2 : Don't get me wrong Greenday..I have a lot of respect for you, you are in a dangerous area..serving our country..also I think you do get a lot of things 'right'. I think that you have the 'wealthy' mentality (doesn't matter if you are wealthy or not). That everybody, regardless of circumstances can make tons of money if they 'just work hard enough'. Which overlooks things like illnesses, or just pure blind bad luck. When you come back, if the economy keeps you from a job long enough for unemployement to run out..you might get a better picture. You might change your mind. I don't know, but regardless of what happens, I'll never take this personally. My response might indicate I did, but I do not. Just want you aware that there are people out there who have worked very hard..and still gotten nowhere.

[Andara Bledin]

I think that you have the 'wealthy' mentality (doesn't matter if you are wealthy or not). That everybody, regardless of circumstances can make tons of money if they 'just work hard enough'.

Some people have to think this way. Because to think otherwise might mean that they have no real control over whether or not they are successful; that too much is the result of blind chance.

To some people, the idea that the world is a random and sometimes cruel place is crippling, so it's easier to be cruel themselves than to admit that they really don't have as much power as they believe they do.

^-.-^

[bara]

That everybody, regardless of circumstances can make tons of money if they 'just work hard enough'. Which overlooks things like illnesses, or just pure blind bad luck.

This is the problem right here in a nutshell. A great job can be lost, through no fault of the worker because they or a family member had the audacity to get sick, be involved in a car accident, or any number of things they have no control over, can't predict will happen, and even if they could then they wouldnt be able to do much if anything about it. A hosptial visit for gall stones caused my bro to have to file for bankruptcy. He was recently out of the Navy and hadnt qualifed for insurance yet. In fact, because he didnt have insurance, they didnt do a proper job at the hospital and didnt x-ray her and sent her home twice saying it was 'just gas'. On the third try he took her an hour out of the way to another hospital with a beter reputaion. They had to operate immediatley.

And once you are in that rut, getting out is painful and extremely slow going at best and impossible at worst. As little as 20 years ago, when I was a kid still, the American Dream was still attainable through hard work, dedication, and honesty.

[FArchivist]

Did more people die back then because they didn't have free money when they retired? I don't know. It'd be kind of hard to prove because there are so many other variables involved (or just the fact that medical technology has drastically increased such then).

It's like people think we can't survive without social healthcare, yet people have for a long time.

My grandmother told me that previous to Social Security and Medicare, before and during the Depression, that things were worse for the elderly. One of three things usually happened, according to her:

1) You got stuck in a back room, which you rarely if ever left except for meals, and rotted. Parents were too busy to bother entertaining you and didn't have time to help you socialize; children were kept away from you for the sake of your health. If you got sick, you either got better on your own or died; payment for medical services was generally reserved for the breadwinner or children, since it was too expensive otherwise.

2) You got put out onto the street.

3) You committed suicide to prevent yourself from being a burden to the family. Or had an "accident".

Granted, this did not apply to the rich, but my grandmother is of the opinion that previous to SS and Medicare, life was an absolute horror. Especially if the breadwinner happened to get ill. No work, no sick compensation, and God forbid you get laid up with a broken anything.

You know, there are plenty of people who genuinely need help. The problem is, there are also plenty more people who genuinely need help because they refuse to help themselves. My taxes also go to those people and it makes me sick. There are more than enough freeloaders to go around. Now this thread suggests giving them more reason NOT to continue. I mean, why work for what they can get for free? And their paychecks would be even less if they did decide to work. So where's incentive to make the lazy work?

You do know that actual statistical studies show that freeloaders are NOT the norm in any welfare system? Just wondering.

But that really doesn't matter. You have two choices:

1) We can provide for the welfare of all citizens, regardless or not of whether they 'deserve' it.

2) We can not do so and let them be sick and possibly die. Not your problem, not my problem, so why give a fuck?

It's really just that simple. Your choice.

Really? I mean, really? You want "concrete data" on something that is non-quantifiable? Moving on.

Concrete data does exist. Want some links? Name the subject.

You know what you just summed up? Some great reasons why getting care from doctors is too expensive. Those bastards sure do overcharge for their services.

No, they don't. They charge EXACTLY what the market can bear, which is perfectly capitalistic and thus American.

Tell you what, you want to make things cheaper? Eliminate the laws that require hospitals to give emergency care to whoever comes into the emergency room, whether or not they can afford it. That right there is the single largest factor in high medical costs across the board.

Of course, that means that if there's a shootout between gangs and some passerby gets shot and can't pass the credit check, they just get left to bleed out. But your prices will go down, and if that's more important to you, than that's the best way to go.

[Mytical]

To be fair, I do not think it fair to suggest that anybody who doesn't want universal health care wants anybody to die or suffer. I mean there has to be a better way. Lower health care costs so that the taxes already collected are enough to cover it, streamline the red tape to cut costs further, not allow hospitals to 'pad' expenses for things they didn't actually do or $500 dollars for a bit of gauze. Things like that

[Boozy]

Tell you what, you want to make things cheaper? Eliminate the laws that require hospitals to give emergency care to whoever comes into the emergency room, whether or not they can afford it. That right there is the single largest factor in high medical costs across the board. \

That's overly simplistic. Canada also treats everyone who comes to their emergency rooms, and our health care costs per capita are half that of America's.