Official Languages for the US

[DesignFox]

I think if you come to America, you should have to learn English. I get annoyed running around seeing signs in Spanish and English- having to listen to Spanish on automated systems, or dealing with people who only speak Spanish so I have to translate through their 8 year old kid. Learn the language! I know it isn't officially the language of the U.S.- but c'mon! Most of the population communicates in English- you should, too!

I give huge props to the people who try and learn. I have patience for that. I do not have patience for the few people I have come across who refuse to assimilate. We all have our cultures, our traditions and heritage to be proud of, but we also have a responsibility to one another to find some common ground. When in Rome....

[Rubystars]

Design, if you deal with only a 'few' who refuse to learn then you're lucky. Quite often, I've had people scowl and quite obviously say nasty things about me to people they're with when I tell them I'm going to have to call someone to translate.

If they're alone, they'll often roll their eyes or act like I'm inconveniencing THEM!

I've even had people come up to me and just start jabbering away in Spanish and I have to tell them I don't understand and then they'll get very angry and say "You need to learn Spanish!"

This always puzzles me because obviously they know at least some English if they can say that, and I usually answer with, No, I don't.

I probably will eventually, just so I can understand more, but I will do my best to reply in English, because I feel catering to them only makes the problem worse.

I have a sucky customer story that probably doesn't belong on the main board. There was a Hispanic couple who came up and unloaded their groceries and I started scanning them, and the woman was holding a young girl in her arms, apparently her daughter. The woman started talking in Spanish and I didn't recognize any of the words and I was focused on scanning the groceries so I didn't realize she was trying to talk to me!

All of a sudden she said "Hey! Hey!" I looked up and I saw that she was suddenly very angry with me. I wondered what the heck I did! She said "I'm talking to you! Why are you ignoring me?" I said "I'm sorry, since you were speaking in Spanish I thought you were talking to your daughter."

She had a look on her face like I just said the most horrible thing ever to her. Then she starts talking in Spanish again and I tell her I don't understand anything she's saying. Her ire gets even hotter and I call for a Spanish speaking associate. My CSM came over to see what was going on and the man started jabbering away at her in Spanish. She doesn't speak it either and she said "Sorry, I don't understand, I'm going to have to call someone." The couple rolls their eyes and acts like we're insulting them.

Finally the woman gave up and started speaking in clear and understandable English about how they'd been mistreated and how racist we were.

The thing that makes me so angry about this story was that they could speak English, they just were refusing to and were trying to force us to speak their (foreign) language.

[DesignFox]

and that ruby, is why the U.S. should officially change the language to English. That is unbelievable.

[Rubystars]

Both major parties are for open borders. Both don't want to risk 'offending' Hispanic voters, who vote either legally or illegally. Bush keeps talking about a guest worker program, which will literally flood my city and many other cities with non-English speaking immigrants from Mexico and other countries who will not return home when their work permit expires.

Every time people talk about a wall, or putting troops on the border, or expediting the process of deporting illegals, they're smeared as racist!

I feel so sad because it's not that I hate Mexicans, it's that I love American/Texan culture and I feel that it's being destroyed in this area.

[Rapscallion]

Over here, the 'problem' is cheaper labour coming in from Eastern Europe. Polish plumbers have pushed the British lads out of the market, for the most part. However, turn this around - the natives have actually priced themselves out of the market. There are people willing to do the same work for less money, and they are usually up to the same or better standard of work. Maddox did a really amusing write-up of this, though I'm too lazy to look it up. I'd also prefer to rely on myself for this.

"Voe either legally or legally." Oh dear - have you never heard of Al Capone? He once famously said "Vote early, vote often." There are many non-hispanics who have cheated at the ballot box. One of the most famous examples in the UK was a council that gerrymandered those less likely to vote for the ruling party into one area to spread their support out in order that they gained more wards. Dame Shirley Porter was heading that group, if you need a Google reference point. Her team were the true-blue Tories - Conservatives. It's not a matter of race.

Where I stand on the issue is that someone wanting to live in a country or region should learn the local language, mostly because it's downright rude, but where do you draw the line? There are large areas of the US where Spanish is the predominant language. In those areas, sure, speak Spanish. If I lived in one of those regions, I'd learn it. It's just as hard for me to learn that as it would be for them to learn English, what with turnabout being fair play. Until the government does something legally, there will never be a change in those areas.

Of course, if I came to live in a predominantly English-speaking part of the US, I'd reserve the right to teach you how to spell correctly, but that's been a running rivalry since I started on the Internet

Rapscallion

[Rubystars]

I agree that there are plenty of white people who break the voting laws. One reason that I mentioned the illegals voting illegally is that one of the major ways they get jobs, etc. is through identity theft. Some do it through false IDs, but many others get genuine social security numbers, etc. by stealing someone else's (Either a citizen or legal resident's) identity.

With citizen's stolen identity, many of them vote. The ballots are even bilingual to make it easier for them. *sighs* Also there's a big problem with 'anchor babies'. We have an outdated (in light of current issues) system of jus soli where if a baby is born here, they automatically become a citizen. That means that all an illegal immigrant has to do is reproduce and they have an "American citizen" child. Often, if they have such a child, deporting them is much harder. Also, when this child gets old enough to vote, they won't be voting to send mama and poppy back home.

If Spanish speakers outnumber English speakers in some areas, it's because many of them have gotten here illegally and I think that should never be rewarded. It's possible that soon the USA will have more Mexicans than Mexico! They also tend to have many more children than Americans, because they are predominantly (of course not all of them) Catholic, and Catholics don't believe in birth control.

This means that while your average middle class American Mary Smith may have 1 or 2 children, 3 if she wants a 'big family', her neighbor Maria Rodriguez is much more likely to have 5 or more children, sometimes as many as 16 or more.

[Rapscallion]

I agree that there are plenty of white people who break the voting laws. One reason that I mentioned the illegals voting illegally is that one of the major ways they get jobs, etc. is through identity theft. Some do it through false IDs, but many others get genuine social security numbers, etc. by stealing someone else's (Either a citizen or legal resident's) identity.

Interesting and bold claim - how many is 'many'? How many immigrants are there, for that matter?

With citizen's stolen identity, many of them vote. The ballots are even bilingual to make it easier for them. *sighs* Also there's a big problem with 'anchor babies'. We have an outdated (in light of current issues) system of jus soli where if a baby is born here, they automatically become a citizen. That means that all an illegal immigrant has to do is reproduce and they have an "American citizen" child. Often, if they have such a child, deporting them is much harder. Also, when this child gets old enough to vote, they won't be voting to send mama and poppy back home.

Again, I'm curious as to what percentage of voters are ispanic. How do you know that so many are voting illegally? Wouldn't it make more sense for them to keep their heads down? Whose identity would they be stealing? Most hispanics I've met have a somewhat darker skin tone, and names such as 'Northman' etc would be somewhat of a giveaway.

The thing about children getting citizenship when born in a country is standard. If my parents had not filled in the correct paperwork, I would have had to perform national service for Germany - my father was in the military. The upshot of that line of argument comes down to people not being allowed to breed unless they can prove their citizenship. Unenforceable.

If Spanish speakers outnumber English speakers in some areas, it's because many of them have gotten here illegally and I think that should never be rewarded. It's possible that soon the USA will have more Mexicans than Mexico! They also tend to have many more children than Americans, because they are predominantly (of course not all of them) Catholic, and Catholics don't believe in birth control.

Again, numbers? People from countries who tend to have larger families also tend to find that they suffer far higher rates of infant mortality. Want to trade with them?

Strict catholism is against birth control, though there are some methods allowed, such as timing sexual activity to risks of fertility (rhythm method), as well as the good old abstinence. Not every catholic is strict and obeys every rule. However, a child raised in a religious household is less likely to break the law, I think - moral codes are sometimes a good thing.

As to how many got there illegally, if that were upheld, how many of the white americans have learned to speak any of the 'first nation' languages? I don't recall there being many requests for permission to settle.

This means that while your average middle class American Mary Smith may have 1 or 2 children, 3 if she wants a 'big family', her neighbor Maria Rodriguez is much more likely to have 5 or more children, sometimes as many as 16 or more.

Hmm - any figures? Are you relying only on anecdotes for this? Sixteen children - that would make down below into quite the thoroughfare, yes?

Fact is that children are expensive. Those children are generally being deprived of the luxuries that a non-hispanic would expect, such as a television each, and maybe a game system to go with it. Instead, they're forced to actually go outside and *gasp* exercise through play, or perhaps fall victim to the higher mortality rate. Whichever floats their boat, I guess.

There's always this sort of teething trouble with immigration - people used to say many of the same thing about black immigrants over here. I hear similar things about middle-eastern immigrants as well. It's the generation that the initial immigrants produce that interest me. I know a few, and as happened with the black immigrants, they're generally well educated, well spoken, restrained in their tendency to have many children, great work ethic (taught by their parents, I believe), and so forth.

Give it a couple of decades and I think you'll see a difference. This sort of thing happens with every wave of immigration.

Rapscallion

[AFPheonix]

What I found interesting during the legal/illegal immigration protests we had last year was that they were made up mostly of hispanics. We have plenty of illegals coming from other places like China too. I suppose they just had the good sense to stay out of the limelight.

Perhaps it's because of where I live or the fact that I'm fluent enough in Spanish to get by, but it's pretty rare that I run into a Spanish-speaking SC. Most of the guys that I know from the horse industry (stall cleaners, guys you pick up on a weekend to buck a few tons of hay) are pretty nice, and are working pretty hard to learn English.
I'm sure at some point I'll run into an asshole, but so far, predominantly the assholes I run across are English speakers.

Frankly, building walls and patrolling the borders are a short term fix, and aren't that great to start with. We will continue to have issues with huge waves of immigration until Mexico gets it's shit together. Can our country help with that? I imagine so, but change will have to start and continue from within.

[squall]

http://www.dontspeakforme.org/

[Rubystars]

.

http://redtape.msnbc.com/2006/03/hidden_cost_of_.html

"Behind many of the nation’s millions of undocumented workers are someone else's documents. To get a job, illegal immigrants need a Social Security number, and they often borrow one. "

"Thousands, perhaps hundreds of thousands of Americans are right now sharing their identities with immigrants and don't know it. It is the dirty little secret of the immigration issue: By not dealing directly with the undocumented worker situation, the U.S government is actually encouraging identity theft. In fact, one can argue that the origins of the identity theft epidemic can be traced to the immigration issue."

Personally, I think that the article underestimates the problem. There are millions of illegal immigrant workers in this country. Sometimes, they even steal children's or minor's identities because the kids often don't find out about it until they try to apply for a credit card.

This site:
http://www.illegalaliens.us/votefraud.htm

has a lot of information about how illegal aliens vote.

I'm not sure what percentage of them are voting, but it's hard to know that kind of thing for certain when they don't have proper documentation in the first place. What we do know is that politicians are taking this voting bloc seriously and are not, as a consequence, doing much to help. Bush, with his idea of a guest worker program, is basically trying to open the door for millions more to come in and just hang around after their work permits have expired, even as he gives lip service to tightening border security. The democrats, on the other hand, fight border controls at every opportunity.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/metro...4542-8488r.htm
This article, written in 2004, shows how easy it is.

"Beyond requiring applicants to sign a pledge on voter-registration forms affirming that they are U.S. citizens, there is no way to prevent the nation's estimated 8 million to 12 million illegal aliens from casting ballots in November, area elections officials said. "

The article also claims that it's apparently a small percentage that actually vote, but then it's also a small percentage of the general population that actually votes. There is also no way to really track how many of them vote, so it's hard to know how they came to that conclusion. The important thing is that it's "certainly not zero."

They make a significant contribution to that all-important swing vote, the ones who are not loyal to one particular party, but will vote differently depending on who they think will best serve a particular interest of theirs. In this case, an interest in open borders.

[Rubystars]

I can't believe that you don't want to do something about the influx of Arab immigrants in your country Rap. Haven't you already seen what their being there and being so insulated from the rest of your society has led to? Do you want more bus bombings? They were part of that insular culture even if they were 'citizens' and not properly part of your culture. They did not assimilate.

When illegal immigrants have 3 or more children here in the USA, they don't have high infant mortality. Furthemore, because children are expensive, they often rely on social programs to help them pay for those children. WIC doesn't require that you're a citizen, for example.

Here's some numbers for you:

http://www7.nationalacademies.org/cp...icDividend.pdf.

"The birth rate of Hispanics is much higher than that of non-Hispanic whites. Among women between the ages of 15 and 44 in the United States, the average number of children a woman bears (the total fertility rate) is 1.8 for non-Hispanic whites (below the level needed for replacement of the population) and 2.8 for Hispanic women (well above replacement level). Among the various national origin groups, Mexican women had the highest fertility, with a rate of 3.3 in 2000, while Cuban women had only 1.9 children.Moreover, while only 5 percent of Hispanics are age 65 or older, among non-Hispanic whites the proportion of older people is three times larger: 15 percent. As a result of these significant differences in age structure and fertility, there is a huge difference in the ratio of births to deaths between these two populations. Among non-Hispanic whites there is approximately one birth for every death. Among Hispanics, the ratio is eight births for every death.These contrasting dynamics in the age structures of Hispanics and non-Hispanic whites can be seen clearly in the two population pyramids shown below (as of 2004).

The non-Hispanic white (and black) population is concentrated in the older age groups, which will expand further as aging baby boomers (the large bulge of the generation born after World War II) start reaching 65 in 2011."

[Rapscallion]

Some are insulated, and others aren't. I'm concerned about the ones who won't accept that they will have to assimilate into the culture of this country, probably because they don't understand that some of their culture will come into mainstream society. Try the word 'kosher' - used by people all around to denote something proper. Most immigrants are decent people. The fact that they're willing to emigrate from known surroundings means either they're desperate or that they aren't that insular after all.

Shitfuckers like Abu Hamza and his ilk, who seem to think it's war with them as generals, can fuck off back to their shithole third-world countries of origin and try and claim asylum there. If they really don't like how this country is run, they can bugger off pronto. I suspect that's a clear enough point of view.

The rest? I've got no problem with them. If someone is prepared to come over and learn the language (the culture will permeate through the language), then why should I have any difficulty? The birth rate is declining amongst the 'native' population over here, and it's generally reckoned that we'd have to take in a certain number of people to pay for our growing elderly population - the increase in longevity incurs more costs. Give it a generation or so and the cultural intake who tend to have more babies won't be doing so. You're looking at the short term, I'm looking at the long term. When I'm crapping myself and drooling in a chair in a nursing home, I want enough income to feed me, and that's who's going to provide it.

I don't care if the nurse wiping drool from my chin is asian or white, as long as there's a damned fine curry in it for me. Curry, eh? Where would the UK be without it? We sell loads of couscous and hummus - traditionally from the arabian areas - so they must be doing something right. Mmmm - falafels...

We've got a guy at work. Let's call him F. He's on a work permit and seeking permanent residency. To look at him, you'd think he was from arabian descent - a touch darker than the average arab. Decent chap, as you might have expected me to say. He's doing a commendable job of learning the language, and some of us have been learning the occasional word of Portugese from him. He's actualy from Colombia, and he was part of a volunteer group of people along the lines of Unicef or something like that.

Aye, he was hounded out because the drug cartels took exception to his activities, and they weren't too tolerant of the fact that he has a boyfriend. Someone like him? Even though he's not going to produce descendants to be taxed to keep me in my dotage, I've got no problems.

I've got to ask - what is the problem with immigrants coming in? Sure, there are some who simply won't learn the majority language of the country, but until there is a legal official language, there is going to be no real reason for them to do that. Most of Canada has two official languages, so I rather think that if the US did declare that it had an official tongue, it would have two. Give it a couple of decades and things will even out.

Rapscallion

[Rubystars]

.

I don't have a problem with (legal) immigrants themselves, and even though I know I might make it sound like it, it's not a racial thing either. Many of the people I work with, both employees and customers, are Hispanic, and most of them seem to be fine.

My problem is the people like the sucky customers I mentioned. There are more of them in Houston than you may think. When they have mass protests in the middle of the city, they often wave Mexican flags. It's a movement that is often called Reconquista, or in English, reconquest, because the ones who behave like that want to have the Southwest (including my state) back as territories under their control and culture.

That's why discussing this under the board 'Clash of Cultures' is so appropriate. If someone from Mexico or another country wants to come here in a legal manner, learn the language, try to fit in, wait until they're legally allowed to, to vote in elections, etc. then I have no problem with them. It's the millions who have come here illegally that really get under my skin, and the ones who refuse assimilation among them that are the worst of all. The ones who are legal residents are not generally fond of the illegals, they resent the fact that they went through the proper channels and so many others just got here without all the red tape!

As for giving it 'a couple of decades', this has been going on much longer than a couple of decades. Operation Wetback was conducted by the government in the 1950s to fight the problem that was growing even then. When I was a child in the 1980s, there were a lot of Spanish speakers, and areas of town that were mostly made up of Hispanics, but most of the time, when you went into major stores, everybody spoke English and you didn't have any trouble communicating.

Now I've basically given up on getting any information in the produce section, for example, because stores often hire people who have very limited English skills for positions in that department. I had a cashier at a major Texas grocery chain ask me how many of a fruit were in a bag, and I said eight. He got a pained look on his face and said "Is that ocho?" What is he doing working with the public if he can't even count to ten? It's gotten so obvious now that it's a problem, that's why the debate is coming to a head, and why I'm so angry with Bush for wanting to completely flood us with more who will not assimilate via a guest worker program.

[Rapscallion]

Shrug - the majority are fine, as you say. If they want to wave the flag of another nation, they can bugger off back there pronto.

Rapscallion

[squall]

I don't really ever hear of the legal immigrants standing against the illegals in my area. Maybe they want their families to come over, I'm not sure. One legal resident I worked with even asked me(a native Texan white guy) if I was going to the huge protest downtown. My response "What the hell for?" My thought was why does he care about the rights of illegals if he is already a citizen?

The things is illegals are against tighter border restrictions and the border wall...but as non-citizens, I really don't see the point in giving them a voice in the first place. Any petitions they sign on our soil shouldn't be legally binding because they are trespassing here. I don't really agree with making them automatic felons for being here though. On the one hand I admire the will to seek a better life, but the letter of the law states they can't be here and they are a burden on our economy.