RMT and other gaming conflicts

[Gravekeeper]

You know, the longer this debate goes on, the less I understand what you're going on about.

That would probably be because you haven't been reading the thread and have been arguing against what you assume my position to be instead of what it actually is. As evidenced by your counter points which are things I covered pages ago. To the point where you're now seriously using a points I myself made earlier against what you assume my position is.

Neko is at least making an honest, respectful argument for his position and keeping up with mine. While I may not agree with him on everything, I'm pretty sure that differences in personal experience aside, we have a fair amount of common ground.

You on the other hand are attacking the position you made up for me, all the while making condescending remarks.

[Andara Bledin]

And.....what exactly? It should cater to the select few that enjoy losing unfairly? ;p

You know, the longer this debate goes on, the less I understand what you're going on about.

^-.-^

[Gravekeeper]

"Fun for all involved" needs to consider that not all people who enjoy a game like the same things about it.

And.....what exactly? It should cater to the select few that enjoy losing unfairly? ;p

[HYHYBT]

What I want is for games to remain balanced and fun for all involved instead of this cynical acceptance of capitalism where people can just buy their way to victory over others.

"Fun for all involved" needs to consider that not all people who enjoy a game like the same things about it.

[Andara Bledin]

Note for those waiting for continuance: Nekojin is using the last of his phone's tether charge to get in a little browser gaming. Once it gives up the ghost, he's going to write out the rest of his posts and pop online to get them posted as he finishes.

^-.-^

[Nekojin]

I'm going to have to break this up into several posts, partly because there's a lot of ground to cover, and partly because tethering my phone to give my computer a functional internet connection eats juice like nobody's business. I'll get to the other parts as time allows, but I'm not likely to be completely done until tomorrow some time.

- - - - -

First, a bit of background on me. I've been gaming online since... around 1985. Of course, back then it was BBS sites, not "the internet" (or the World Wide Web, or any of the other names they've tried to slap on it). I've engaged in RMT for financial gain only twice - once was "legal" (Note that I'll use "Legal" and "Illegal" as shorthand in this thread for "With or against the Terms of Service"), once was illegal, and they both happened about the same time, and for much the same reason.

The first incident (the illegal one) was selling 2 million Gold from Gaia Online for ~$140*. I regretted it at the time, but I believe that, all else being equal, I'd probably do it again. You see, I did it because we were looking at being evicted for lack of rent, and this was the fastest way I could think of to raise cash in a hurry.

I learned a valuable lesson in trading while playing Gaia - one that every would-be virtual trader should heed: It's not necessary to rip people off to make a profit. There's ALWAYS people looking to offload things at below market prices in order to get gold (or Zenny, or Creds, or whatever) NOW.

The second incident, the legal one, was a few weeks later. EQ2 had just launched their "Exchange" servers, where RMT was legal within narrow limits (you had to go through Sony's servers, and Sony took a good-sized whack off the top). I figured this might be a way for me to make some money to help with the rent situation, and got an account. In the two months that I played on Bazaar, I found one rare item (a Lv. 15 "twink" robe) worth ~$13, which I used to pay for the second month. I didn't find anything else really worth selling on its own, and I was nowhere near the level I needed to be to start doing some serious churn on my gold. I got bored with it, and moved on.

As a general rule (one that I've only broken once, as mentioned above), I play games by the rules that are set before me. If a company wants to restrict or ban RMT, I won't use it. If they allow RMT, I'll examine the situation before I decide whether or not to jump in. I honestly don't dislike or disrespect game companies who decide that they don't want RMT in their games - it's their playground, I'm only playing in it. But I'm also aware of the fact that not everyone feels the same way, and not everyone has the same ethics with regard to such things.

And now... I'm off to pillage a certain auction house. =¬_¬=

* In order to get up the gold, I sold quite a few high-demand, high-value items, but especially my most prized posession, a Human G-Corp Labcoat. I'd spent months wheeling and dealing** to get one, then abruptly had two, and traded one to get an even rarer and more valuable item. At that time, they were going for around 850k gold each.

** There's a personality test that started making the rounds just over a decade ago, called The Bartle Test that breaks your gaming personality down into four categories - Achiever, Explorer, Socializer, Killer - and rates you independently on the four categories. I rank highly on Explorer, medium on Achiever and Socializer, and low (or zero, sometimes) on Killer. My greatest enjoyment in MMO games are crafting (if the crafting system is robust - WoW's isn't, SWG is still the high mark for that), exploring (again, SWG was great for this, when that spot that is an Uggnaut Outpost this week could be a Womp Rat Nest next week, or empty terrain), and trading. I love to wheel and deal, if the game's player economy is robust enough.

[Nekojin]

GK, I play on a RPPVP server (Lightninghoof) and there's still a problem with goldfarmers there.

But no, I'm apparently only worried about my rhetorical e-penis.

Well, RP-PVP isn't real PvP.
(Seriously, there are a lot of self-styled hardcore PvPers who sneer at RP-PVP servers, and make ridiculous, strawmannish characterizations of RP-PVP players, like "Make an attack, spend 2 minutes monologuing, let opponent make an attack, they monologue, repeat")

- - - - -

I'd like to try to bury the hatchet with you, Gravekeeper, but I've only got 10 minutes to post right now, so I'll just say that we've gotten a bit off-track with quote-dueling, and some of your perceptions of my positions are incorrect. I do believe that RMT can be damaging and destructive, but I don't believe that it's the Evil of All Evils and Cause of All Woes that some people seem to think that it is. I think that EVE is an excellent example of how properly-controlled RMT can stop being a cost center (with regard to hunting down illegal RMT'ers), and start paying for itself, or even becoming a revenue center for the company.

I'll expound on that later, provided my phone-tethered-PC lets me.
(There's a long story, there, but no time now)

- - - - -

Part of the underlying problem to all of this is the nature of an MMORPG. Prior to WoW, I absolutely refused to play on PvP servers. The idea that some high-level player could swoop in, kill my character, undo the last however-many-hours of XP and possibly cost me some gear that they get to loot from my corpse? FUCK THAT. (That's how Ultima Online worked before the creation of the PvE-only Trammel shard, and EQ's PvP wasn't much less harsh).

I believed that WoW had gotten the balance between PvP and PvE right. I now believe that I was naive in that belief, and that there is no such thing as a balance between PvP and PvE. There will always be predators, gankers, people who seek any advantage to kill other players while being at little or no risk to themselves. I don't think that "fair" PvP is possible within a level-and-gear based RPG world like EQ and WoW.

Out of time. More later.

[Rapscallion]

These are actually examples of why RMT is not the problem, but merely a symptom.

I sort of agree - the game mechanics are obviously not wired correctly to prevent it flourishing. The vast majority of MMOs have some form of resource collection, and that is a prime candidate for farmers to target for their activities via bots or sweatshop labour.

In the first case, the supply is controlled. Unfortunately, in most games, the supply of whatever the commodity in question is, is not under proper control of the game mechanics.

I believe that was within the stuff I wrote, so agreed.

One potential fix for that is to make cooldowns on a single player's ability to farm a specific node of resource. If the resource replenishes every five minutes, make any single character, or even an entire account, unable to harvest it more than once every 90 minutes. In that time, up to 17 other players can have a crack at harvesting the resource in question, cutting out a lot of the market the farmers are trying to create, and also making it far easier to identify what accounts belong to farmers versus what accounts simply include resource mules.

That doesn't work for me. Part of it is that it's unrealistic and a clunky game mechanic. I want lumber. There are hundreds of trees. I'm not allowed to chop down a tree because I did so two minutes ago, but standing next to me is someone else who can do what I'm not allowed because they arrived recently.

The other part is that the vast majority of MMOs are competitive. It's a form of competition to gain the most resources most effectively. In Eve there are, for example, asteroid belts that replenish once a day. I'm in one right now on my other screen as I type on here. The asteroids are of varying quality of ore. I could team up with others to form a gang with boosters to plough through more rocks in a given time and deny others the same resource that I'm enjoying. I've had people steal my jetcans of ore on any number of occasions. It's competition.

In the second, as mentioned several times, there's just not enough resource sinks in the vast majority of MOGs. In the beginning, things are tougher, but by the time you reach end game, almost everything is completely nominal in terms of cost, except the very top end gear. Nothing else costs anything but a little bit of time. The rarity of good stuff at the bottom is too low, and the rarity of stuff at the very top is too high.

I used to admin on a MUD called Medievia. It had plenty of gold sinks, but far, far too much gold in circulation. That experience taught me a solid lesson. The fact that a game has gold sinks built into it to remove money from a player's achievements is a sign to me that it's designed poorly. That wealth the sink is there to remove shouldn't be in the game in the first place.

Rapscallion

[Fire_on_High]

If the resource replenishes every five minutes, make any single character, or even an entire account, unable to harvest it more than once every 90 minutes. In that time, up to 17 other players can have a crack at harvesting the resource in question, cutting out a lot of the market the farmers are trying to create, and also making it far easier to identify what accounts belong to farmers versus what accounts simply include resource mules.


^-.-^

Ugh...anything that makes crafting even more of a pain in the butt, and requires even more time to be diddled away flying in circles bored to tears and wishing desperately to be able to do ANYTHING else, is by definition not a good thing.

Effectively enforcing the idea that you can only make so many items or get so many skillups in a certain amount of time that doesn't depend on luck, speed, aggression, or knowledge, just puts bots on a timer and rules out the chance anyone else may get lucky or have a good run.

No, no, no. Terrible idea.

[Andara Bledin]

The important part for me is that they condone it. In other games, it's against the T&C. CCP still cracks down on ISK spammers etc, but from what I can tell the introduction of PLEX has really diminished it within Eve.

Eve is also balanced internally by the sheer destructive scale of the gameplay - you may spend a lot of ISK on your ship, but even in the safe areas you can be ganked by opportunists.

These are actually examples of why RMT is not the problem, but merely a symptom.

In the first case, the supply is controlled. Unfortunately, in most games, the supply of whatever the commodity in question is, is not under proper control of the game mechanics. One potential fix for that is to make cooldowns on a single player's ability to farm a specific node of resource. If the resource replenishes every five minutes, make any single character, or even an entire account, unable to harvest it more than once every 90 minutes. In that time, up to 17 other players can have a crack at harvesting the resource in question, cutting out a lot of the market the farmers are trying to create, and also making it far easier to identify what accounts belong to farmers versus what accounts simply include resource mules.

In the second, as mentioned several times, there's just not enough resource sinks in the vast majority of MOGs. In the beginning, things are tougher, but by the time you reach end game, almost everything is completely nominal in terms of cost, except the very top end gear. Nothing else costs anything but a little bit of time. The rarity of good stuff at the bottom is too low, and the rarity of stuff at the very top is too high.

Couple that with a complete ban on trade of the highest level items, the fact that once they get used they essentially leave the game the moment they become obsolete (I find binding to be a particularly asinine mechanic for rare items), and you open up a huge opportunity for grey and black market operations.

^-.-^

[Rapscallion]

And there you go back to the game selling shit as opposed to the players selling shit.

In fact, PLEX is players selling shit via RMT, but that seems to be ok for some reason.

I don't think the example in Eve of PLEX is quite a black and white issue as you seem to think it is.

Eve is the only game I've played where the game actively encourages people to RMT with PLEX. In other games, other businesses make a parasitic living off the game by farming it and trashing the ingame economy. CCP came up with the system of PLEX whereby anyone buying PLEX is buying time in the game, their monthly subscription, and then that can be used as a tradeable item within the game. It's under CCP's control. They get the income to maintain and develop the game anyway.

The important part for me is that they condone it. In other games, it's against the T&C. CCP still cracks down on ISK spammers etc, but from what I can tell the introduction of PLEX has really diminished it within Eve.

I've played several games where there would be regular spammers at trade centres or on trade channels trying to advertise their wares as a living on the back of someone else's work, and against the T&C of the game. It's the best solution I've seen - I know of players who get to play for free for effectively giving up some of their monthly income - some of them people who couldn't afford to play otherwise. CCP gets the income from them anyway. Nobody can make an income out of the game in the way people try to in the rest of gaming. More people are able to afford to play. Richer (in real life) players support a larger gaming base. Sure, they get better ingame items, but ISK in Eve isn't that hard to come by.

Eve is also balanced internally by the sheer destructive scale of the gameplay - you may spend a lot of ISK on your ship, but even in the safe areas you can be ganked by opportunists. A mate of mine had his ship blown out from under him in the allegedly safe area while autopiloting as he wandered off to the corner shop. That was several weeks of income gone in a flash.

Rapscallion

[Andara Bledin]

You keep saying that except we've been talking about games were people are in competition.

Are we? That's a huge assumption to make without making an explicit statement to that fact.

I've been mostly talking about D3, only including WoW where it's been mentioned. And if you play PvE, you're not in direct competition, anyway, except in Battlegrounds, and skill counts for more than gear except at the very top, and at that point, being in a guild is more advantageous than having cash to throw at it.

Can you name one successful online game where a pay to win scheme was warmly embraced by the player base? Instead of causing a negative backlash? As Raps already mentioned, CCP made this mistake once and the players flipped their shit.

And there you go back to the game selling shit as opposed to the players selling shit.

In fact, PLEX is players selling shit via RMT, but that seems to be ok for some reason.

I said alread, several times, it becomes a problem when these accomplishments are occuring within same arena of play with competition involved. You're arguing an angle I already said was fine while ignoring what I'm actually talking about.

So... You're saying that your Gold Star gets tarnished when other people get their Gold Stars without having to go through the same "trials" you did to get said Gold Star?

You may think it's clear as day, but no less than four people are still asking for clarification, so obviously, if you're not looking at it from the same angle, it isn't nearly that clear.

GK, I play on a RPPVP server (Lightninghoof) and there's still a problem with goldfarmers there.

But no, I'm apparently only worried about my rhetorical e-penis.

One thing to note is that people who actually have a stake (as in, people who could make money from transactions without having to break the TOS) are far more likely to work to get rid of farmers than those whose only stake is enjoyment of the game (who are more likely to just quit playing).

Also, if there's a legitimate avenue of procurement, the profit to the farmers drops through the floor, making it far less attractive.

In real life, the drug trade is the huge money-making machine it is due to the illicit nature of it; take out the contraband angle, and most of the "expense" goes away, as does a large chunk of the customer base. If the customers have a legitimate source, that makes it better for everybody involved.

The best way to combat the issue of goldfarming is to make it unprofitable. Otherwise, the measures that would have to be taken to prevent it by other means are either completely inadequate (even games with robust responses to farming issues can't do more than stomp out a couple of fires here and there while the entire game burns) or would be so draconian that they would make the arguments about always-online in single-player games look like pillow fights.

^-.-^

[AdminAssistant]

GK, I play on a RPPVP server (Lightninghoof) and there's still a problem with goldfarmers there.

But no, I'm apparently only worried about my rhetorical e-penis.

[Gravekeeper]

Gurubashi server many years ago, and Chromaggus much more recently (Home of the Ars Brute Squad). Both are PvP servers, which may make somewhat of a difference in our experiences, here.

That may actually explain everything in a nutshell as to why we're at an impass here with our WoW experience. You don't run bots on a server where everyone can murder them constantly. I doubt the PVP servers have as much of a problem with goldselling as the PVE ones do where players can't directly retaliate and fix the problem themselves.

Though I must admit flagging bot/spammers for pvp would be a novel method of dealing with it in ahy game. -.-

Unless you're in some competition with them, why do you even care how they get to the top?

You keep saying that except we've been talking about games were people are in competition.

You've completely ignored providing any reason beyond, "Cause it makes me feel less fulfilled," which is all in your head and obviously not the way that everybody else feels.

Can you name one successful online game where a pay to win scheme was warmly embraced by the player base? Instead of causing a negative backlash? As Raps already mentioned, CCP made this mistake once and the players flipped their shit. They turned the sandbox rules of the game back on CCP and declared war on them from inside the game. Thousands of players burned everything the fuck down in game.

They literally rioted. They attacked and took over every trade hub in the game. Thousands of them. CCP backed down. People got fired.

DLC for in-game items is RMT. To claim otherwise is just stupid.

Considering that you, yourself, earlier brought up another publisher selling in-game items as part of your anti-RMT argument, I can't see how you can honestly do a complete 180 and not realize how much credibility you lose by it.

Yes, because its not as if I've been arguing this entire time about game balance and fairness being my primary concern with RMT. Nor that I didn't specifically state:

In order to use RMT successfully and without player headaches, it has to be in a game designed to have RMT and where RMT only awards convenience or cosmetics. Not straight up power over others.

But carry on.

Why? You've still accomplished what you've accomplished. That is completely unaffected by anything that anybody else has accomplished regardless of how they accomplished it.

I've been giving reasons, but obviously they aren't being read.

I said alread, several times, it becomes a problem when these accomplishments are occuring within same arena of play with competition involved. You're arguing an angle I already said was fine while ignoring what I'm actually talking about.

[Andara Bledin]

What I want is for games to remain balanced and fun for all involved instead of this cynical acceptance of capitalism where people can just buy their way to victory over others.

Unless you're in some competition with them, why do you even care how they get to the top?

You've completely ignored providing any reason beyond, "Cause it makes me feel less fulfilled," which is all in your head and obviously not the way that everybody else feels.

Ignorant bullshit like confusing DLC with RMT?

People are paying real money for virtual shit. That was the topic you brought up that I responded to.

DLC for in-game items is RMT. To claim otherwise is just stupid.

Considering that you, yourself, earlier brought up another publisher selling in-game items as part of your anti-RMT argument, I can't see how you can honestly do a complete 180 and not realize how much credibility you lose by it.

Seriously? Why don't they matter? Are you really this cynical about gaming? No wonder you don't understand anything I've been trying to say.

I don't understand because you haven't given a non-headspace reason.

So far, all you've said is, "Because it makes me feel like less of a man gamer." (obviously paraphrased, but that's the message I'm getting here)

Why? You've still accomplished what you've accomplished. That is completely unaffected by anything that anybody else has accomplished regardless of how they accomplished it.

Seriously, this is a vanity or pride issue and nothing more.

It's like some chick making the effort to grow her hair long whining like a toddler because the girl next to her went out and bought extensions.

^-.-^