RMT and other gaming conflicts

[HYHYBT]

The value of an accomplishment is directly proportional to the time and difficulty involved in achieving it. If that time and difficulty is bypassed, it loses value as an accomplishment.

Its also the reason none of the analogies being presented here apply. It doesn't matter if you repaired the computer yourself or had someone repair it because you were not in a computer repair competition at the time. If you had bet Frank you could repair a computer faster than he could, then when you sit down to do it, pay Jim $50 to do it for you to beat Frank, Frank is going to be rightfully upset.

AHA! Now we're getting somewhere, though the two paragraphs don't seem like the same point at all.

On the first one: depends on how much the person doing the accomplishment values it. Nothing else.
On the second: I could get that, if the game were some sort of race, or if you were forced to play only with those who had spent the same length of time in the game as you had. Are those true? If not, then again, why does it matter?

[Gravekeeper]

You keep saying that it's detrimental to the game, but you're not offering any real metrics by which to measure it, only hand-wavy assertions.

Don't bury your head in the sand and claim it a victory. I provided you links to Aion, including ones where NCSoft themselves acknowledge the problem and if you're seriously unaware of Blizzard's years long campaign against goldselling despite being a long time WoW player, I don't know what to tell you.

If Blizzard, the people with all the economic data, say its affecting server economies and disrupting players, what basis do you have to say otherwise? Personal experience? The thing you won't accept from me but continue to use to support your own position?

That last sentence is what I have a problem with. In a properly protected environment, that Sword of Uber had to have been earned by somebody. That it's passed on to someone else rather than vendored doesn't in any way cheapen the accomplishment of the people who earned it properly.

The issue is bringing in an external economic force to bear on in-game balance. As I have said several times now. If someone purchases the Sword of Uber in game from someone else using in-game currency that they themselves earned then they have still accomplished something using in-game mechanics. They have still achieved the Sword of Uber using in-game methods available to everyone.

$50 of disposal income is not available to everyone.

I think there's enough players who reached Inferno mode in the first week that the RMAH is already going to be flooded, "Chinese Farmers" or no. You really give them far, far too much credit.

Yes, its not like they went from a $500 million industry in 2008 to a 3 billion dollar industry as of 2009. That so lucrative crime gangs and prison labour camps are getting in on the action.

The vast majority of which are in China.

All of this happens without RMT going on. A high enough volume of crafters (which WoW has) makes it difficult, if not impossible, for new crafters to enter the scene. This isn't news.

"Well it would probably happen anyway" is not a valid argument for endorsing RMT.

Goldfarmers make a good chunk of their gold through volume selling valuable items and mats on the AH that were farmed up with bots. They both increase the supply and undercut legitimate players. Economically speaking, this is a Bad Thing(tm) and just because it happens inside of a game doesn't magically make economics no longer apply.

Now I have no idea what you're going on about. WoW's "gaping money sinks" are laughable in the face of the earning potential of the average raid-level character, even if they're not raiding.

You two seem to be playing a completely different version of WoW than the rest of us here.

EDIT: I take that back. City of Heroes has Exemplaring, which allows a high-level player to temporarily drop down to another player's level in order to run content at the lower player's level. It works extremely well, but nobody else seems to be willing to follow that lead.

Guild Wars 2 is, thankfully. I've been begging MMOs to copy CoH's exemplar system for years. >.>

I've played on both high-pop and low-pop servers, and never had a problem with getting mats. If there seems to be someone hogging the resource nodes, there are other zones with the same resources. I've never seen an instance where they were ALL being farmed. And, as I've said before, you cannot tell the difference between someone who is farming for gold-selling, and someone who is power-farming in order to stockpile for themselves or their guild.

I would dearly love to know what server this is you play on where you've never seen farming bots. Just so I can transfer all my chars there should I ever lose my mind and start playing again. On the servers I've played on, any good harvesting area you'll have to fight jklaldkhakh6, jahdajkhhd7 and kjafhsahf8 for as they run in a straight line from node to node killing any mobs that aggro on them with synchonized spamming of 1 attack skill.

Welcome to capitalism. Seriously.

And that makes it okay because?

If there's no direct competition, so the fuck what? Do you want a gold star for never using RMT or something? It's about as valuable as the achievements being attained.

What I want is for games to remain balanced and fun for all involved instead of this cynical acceptance of capitalism where people can just buy their way to victory over others. There is no need to bring real world economic inequality into gaming ( and don't give me some bullshit about life not being fair, you know full well what I'm talking about here ). Also, there are precious few online games that don't involve competition of some sort.

Ignorant bullshit.

If this were true, then nobody would buy the cosmetic crap for sale for Saints Row the Third because it's primarily a single-player game, and it's easily proven that people do pay real money for shit that not only doesn't help them in any competitive manner, but doesn't necessarily ever get seen by anyone else.

Ignorant bullshit like confusing DLC with RMT?

This is all kinds of opinion being stated as fact. It will tick off some people. But nobody has stated why those people being ticked off should matter, or why those people should even be ticked off in the first place.

Seriously? Why don't they matter? Are you really this cynical about gaming? No wonder you don't understand anything I've been trying to say.

[Nekojin]

You two seem to be playing a completely different version of WoW than the rest of us here.

Apparently. The only time I've ever had any problem in keeping a positive cash-flow was when I was raiding back in Vanilla. Back then, raid food, raid potions, and so on cost the guild quite a bit. Since then, not so much. Even repeated wipes during a raid doesn't significantly impact my per-week earnings.

I would dearly love to know what server this is you play on where you've never seen farming bots. Just so I can transfer all my chars there should I ever lose my mind and start playing again. On the servers I've played on, any good harvesting area you'll have to fight jklaldkhakh6, jahdajkhhd7 and kjafhsahf8 for as they run in a straight line from node to node killing any mobs that aggro on them with synchonized spamming of 1 attack skill.

Gurubashi server many years ago, and Chromaggus much more recently (Home of the Ars Brute Squad). Both are PvP servers, which may make somewhat of a difference in our experiences, here.

Gurubashi used to be high-pop, but I doubt it still is**; Chromaggus has (AFAIK) always been low-pop*.

* WoWWiki says that with the addition of dedicated Brazilian servers, Guru went chronically low-pop.
** From WoWWiki: "This server is noted for consistently low population (as shown by the server choice dialog), and a faction imbalance favoring the Horde."

[Andara Bledin]

What I want is for games to remain balanced and fun for all involved instead of this cynical acceptance of capitalism where people can just buy their way to victory over others.

Unless you're in some competition with them, why do you even care how they get to the top?

You've completely ignored providing any reason beyond, "Cause it makes me feel less fulfilled," which is all in your head and obviously not the way that everybody else feels.

Ignorant bullshit like confusing DLC with RMT?

People are paying real money for virtual shit. That was the topic you brought up that I responded to.

DLC for in-game items is RMT. To claim otherwise is just stupid.

Considering that you, yourself, earlier brought up another publisher selling in-game items as part of your anti-RMT argument, I can't see how you can honestly do a complete 180 and not realize how much credibility you lose by it.

Seriously? Why don't they matter? Are you really this cynical about gaming? No wonder you don't understand anything I've been trying to say.

I don't understand because you haven't given a non-headspace reason.

So far, all you've said is, "Because it makes me feel like less of a man gamer." (obviously paraphrased, but that's the message I'm getting here)

Why? You've still accomplished what you've accomplished. That is completely unaffected by anything that anybody else has accomplished regardless of how they accomplished it.

Seriously, this is a vanity or pride issue and nothing more.

It's like some chick making the effort to grow her hair long whining like a toddler because the girl next to her went out and bought extensions.

^-.-^

[Gravekeeper]

Gurubashi server many years ago, and Chromaggus much more recently (Home of the Ars Brute Squad). Both are PvP servers, which may make somewhat of a difference in our experiences, here.

That may actually explain everything in a nutshell as to why we're at an impass here with our WoW experience. You don't run bots on a server where everyone can murder them constantly. I doubt the PVP servers have as much of a problem with goldselling as the PVE ones do where players can't directly retaliate and fix the problem themselves.

Though I must admit flagging bot/spammers for pvp would be a novel method of dealing with it in ahy game. -.-

Unless you're in some competition with them, why do you even care how they get to the top?

You keep saying that except we've been talking about games were people are in competition.

You've completely ignored providing any reason beyond, "Cause it makes me feel less fulfilled," which is all in your head and obviously not the way that everybody else feels.

Can you name one successful online game where a pay to win scheme was warmly embraced by the player base? Instead of causing a negative backlash? As Raps already mentioned, CCP made this mistake once and the players flipped their shit. They turned the sandbox rules of the game back on CCP and declared war on them from inside the game. Thousands of players burned everything the fuck down in game.

They literally rioted. They attacked and took over every trade hub in the game. Thousands of them. CCP backed down. People got fired.

DLC for in-game items is RMT. To claim otherwise is just stupid.

Considering that you, yourself, earlier brought up another publisher selling in-game items as part of your anti-RMT argument, I can't see how you can honestly do a complete 180 and not realize how much credibility you lose by it.

Yes, because its not as if I've been arguing this entire time about game balance and fairness being my primary concern with RMT. Nor that I didn't specifically state:

In order to use RMT successfully and without player headaches, it has to be in a game designed to have RMT and where RMT only awards convenience or cosmetics. Not straight up power over others.

But carry on.

Why? You've still accomplished what you've accomplished. That is completely unaffected by anything that anybody else has accomplished regardless of how they accomplished it.

I've been giving reasons, but obviously they aren't being read.

I said alread, several times, it becomes a problem when these accomplishments are occuring within same arena of play with competition involved. You're arguing an angle I already said was fine while ignoring what I'm actually talking about.

[AdminAssistant]

GK, I play on a RPPVP server (Lightninghoof) and there's still a problem with goldfarmers there.

But no, I'm apparently only worried about my rhetorical e-penis.

[Andara Bledin]

You keep saying that except we've been talking about games were people are in competition.

Are we? That's a huge assumption to make without making an explicit statement to that fact.

I've been mostly talking about D3, only including WoW where it's been mentioned. And if you play PvE, you're not in direct competition, anyway, except in Battlegrounds, and skill counts for more than gear except at the very top, and at that point, being in a guild is more advantageous than having cash to throw at it.

Can you name one successful online game where a pay to win scheme was warmly embraced by the player base? Instead of causing a negative backlash? As Raps already mentioned, CCP made this mistake once and the players flipped their shit.

And there you go back to the game selling shit as opposed to the players selling shit.

In fact, PLEX is players selling shit via RMT, but that seems to be ok for some reason.

I said alread, several times, it becomes a problem when these accomplishments are occuring within same arena of play with competition involved. You're arguing an angle I already said was fine while ignoring what I'm actually talking about.

So... You're saying that your Gold Star gets tarnished when other people get their Gold Stars without having to go through the same "trials" you did to get said Gold Star?

You may think it's clear as day, but no less than four people are still asking for clarification, so obviously, if you're not looking at it from the same angle, it isn't nearly that clear.

GK, I play on a RPPVP server (Lightninghoof) and there's still a problem with goldfarmers there.

But no, I'm apparently only worried about my rhetorical e-penis.

One thing to note is that people who actually have a stake (as in, people who could make money from transactions without having to break the TOS) are far more likely to work to get rid of farmers than those whose only stake is enjoyment of the game (who are more likely to just quit playing).

Also, if there's a legitimate avenue of procurement, the profit to the farmers drops through the floor, making it far less attractive.

In real life, the drug trade is the huge money-making machine it is due to the illicit nature of it; take out the contraband angle, and most of the "expense" goes away, as does a large chunk of the customer base. If the customers have a legitimate source, that makes it better for everybody involved.

The best way to combat the issue of goldfarming is to make it unprofitable. Otherwise, the measures that would have to be taken to prevent it by other means are either completely inadequate (even games with robust responses to farming issues can't do more than stomp out a couple of fires here and there while the entire game burns) or would be so draconian that they would make the arguments about always-online in single-player games look like pillow fights.

^-.-^

[Rapscallion]

And there you go back to the game selling shit as opposed to the players selling shit.

In fact, PLEX is players selling shit via RMT, but that seems to be ok for some reason.

I don't think the example in Eve of PLEX is quite a black and white issue as you seem to think it is.

Eve is the only game I've played where the game actively encourages people to RMT with PLEX. In other games, other businesses make a parasitic living off the game by farming it and trashing the ingame economy. CCP came up with the system of PLEX whereby anyone buying PLEX is buying time in the game, their monthly subscription, and then that can be used as a tradeable item within the game. It's under CCP's control. They get the income to maintain and develop the game anyway.

The important part for me is that they condone it. In other games, it's against the T&C. CCP still cracks down on ISK spammers etc, but from what I can tell the introduction of PLEX has really diminished it within Eve.

I've played several games where there would be regular spammers at trade centres or on trade channels trying to advertise their wares as a living on the back of someone else's work, and against the T&C of the game. It's the best solution I've seen - I know of players who get to play for free for effectively giving up some of their monthly income - some of them people who couldn't afford to play otherwise. CCP gets the income from them anyway. Nobody can make an income out of the game in the way people try to in the rest of gaming. More people are able to afford to play. Richer (in real life) players support a larger gaming base. Sure, they get better ingame items, but ISK in Eve isn't that hard to come by.

Eve is also balanced internally by the sheer destructive scale of the gameplay - you may spend a lot of ISK on your ship, but even in the safe areas you can be ganked by opportunists. A mate of mine had his ship blown out from under him in the allegedly safe area while autopiloting as he wandered off to the corner shop. That was several weeks of income gone in a flash.

Rapscallion

[Andara Bledin]

The important part for me is that they condone it. In other games, it's against the T&C. CCP still cracks down on ISK spammers etc, but from what I can tell the introduction of PLEX has really diminished it within Eve.

Eve is also balanced internally by the sheer destructive scale of the gameplay - you may spend a lot of ISK on your ship, but even in the safe areas you can be ganked by opportunists.

These are actually examples of why RMT is not the problem, but merely a symptom.

In the first case, the supply is controlled. Unfortunately, in most games, the supply of whatever the commodity in question is, is not under proper control of the game mechanics. One potential fix for that is to make cooldowns on a single player's ability to farm a specific node of resource. If the resource replenishes every five minutes, make any single character, or even an entire account, unable to harvest it more than once every 90 minutes. In that time, up to 17 other players can have a crack at harvesting the resource in question, cutting out a lot of the market the farmers are trying to create, and also making it far easier to identify what accounts belong to farmers versus what accounts simply include resource mules.

In the second, as mentioned several times, there's just not enough resource sinks in the vast majority of MOGs. In the beginning, things are tougher, but by the time you reach end game, almost everything is completely nominal in terms of cost, except the very top end gear. Nothing else costs anything but a little bit of time. The rarity of good stuff at the bottom is too low, and the rarity of stuff at the very top is too high.

Couple that with a complete ban on trade of the highest level items, the fact that once they get used they essentially leave the game the moment they become obsolete (I find binding to be a particularly asinine mechanic for rare items), and you open up a huge opportunity for grey and black market operations.

^-.-^

[Fire_on_High]

If the resource replenishes every five minutes, make any single character, or even an entire account, unable to harvest it more than once every 90 minutes. In that time, up to 17 other players can have a crack at harvesting the resource in question, cutting out a lot of the market the farmers are trying to create, and also making it far easier to identify what accounts belong to farmers versus what accounts simply include resource mules.


^-.-^

Ugh...anything that makes crafting even more of a pain in the butt, and requires even more time to be diddled away flying in circles bored to tears and wishing desperately to be able to do ANYTHING else, is by definition not a good thing.

Effectively enforcing the idea that you can only make so many items or get so many skillups in a certain amount of time that doesn't depend on luck, speed, aggression, or knowledge, just puts bots on a timer and rules out the chance anyone else may get lucky or have a good run.

No, no, no. Terrible idea.

[Rapscallion]

These are actually examples of why RMT is not the problem, but merely a symptom.

I sort of agree - the game mechanics are obviously not wired correctly to prevent it flourishing. The vast majority of MMOs have some form of resource collection, and that is a prime candidate for farmers to target for their activities via bots or sweatshop labour.

In the first case, the supply is controlled. Unfortunately, in most games, the supply of whatever the commodity in question is, is not under proper control of the game mechanics.

I believe that was within the stuff I wrote, so agreed.

One potential fix for that is to make cooldowns on a single player's ability to farm a specific node of resource. If the resource replenishes every five minutes, make any single character, or even an entire account, unable to harvest it more than once every 90 minutes. In that time, up to 17 other players can have a crack at harvesting the resource in question, cutting out a lot of the market the farmers are trying to create, and also making it far easier to identify what accounts belong to farmers versus what accounts simply include resource mules.

That doesn't work for me. Part of it is that it's unrealistic and a clunky game mechanic. I want lumber. There are hundreds of trees. I'm not allowed to chop down a tree because I did so two minutes ago, but standing next to me is someone else who can do what I'm not allowed because they arrived recently.

The other part is that the vast majority of MMOs are competitive. It's a form of competition to gain the most resources most effectively. In Eve there are, for example, asteroid belts that replenish once a day. I'm in one right now on my other screen as I type on here. The asteroids are of varying quality of ore. I could team up with others to form a gang with boosters to plough through more rocks in a given time and deny others the same resource that I'm enjoying. I've had people steal my jetcans of ore on any number of occasions. It's competition.

In the second, as mentioned several times, there's just not enough resource sinks in the vast majority of MOGs. In the beginning, things are tougher, but by the time you reach end game, almost everything is completely nominal in terms of cost, except the very top end gear. Nothing else costs anything but a little bit of time. The rarity of good stuff at the bottom is too low, and the rarity of stuff at the very top is too high.

I used to admin on a MUD called Medievia. It had plenty of gold sinks, but far, far too much gold in circulation. That experience taught me a solid lesson. The fact that a game has gold sinks built into it to remove money from a player's achievements is a sign to me that it's designed poorly. That wealth the sink is there to remove shouldn't be in the game in the first place.

Rapscallion

[Nekojin]

GK, I play on a RPPVP server (Lightninghoof) and there's still a problem with goldfarmers there.

But no, I'm apparently only worried about my rhetorical e-penis.

Well, RP-PVP isn't real PvP.
(Seriously, there are a lot of self-styled hardcore PvPers who sneer at RP-PVP servers, and make ridiculous, strawmannish characterizations of RP-PVP players, like "Make an attack, spend 2 minutes monologuing, let opponent make an attack, they monologue, repeat")

- - - - -

I'd like to try to bury the hatchet with you, Gravekeeper, but I've only got 10 minutes to post right now, so I'll just say that we've gotten a bit off-track with quote-dueling, and some of your perceptions of my positions are incorrect. I do believe that RMT can be damaging and destructive, but I don't believe that it's the Evil of All Evils and Cause of All Woes that some people seem to think that it is. I think that EVE is an excellent example of how properly-controlled RMT can stop being a cost center (with regard to hunting down illegal RMT'ers), and start paying for itself, or even becoming a revenue center for the company.

I'll expound on that later, provided my phone-tethered-PC lets me.
(There's a long story, there, but no time now)

- - - - -

Part of the underlying problem to all of this is the nature of an MMORPG. Prior to WoW, I absolutely refused to play on PvP servers. The idea that some high-level player could swoop in, kill my character, undo the last however-many-hours of XP and possibly cost me some gear that they get to loot from my corpse? FUCK THAT. (That's how Ultima Online worked before the creation of the PvE-only Trammel shard, and EQ's PvP wasn't much less harsh).

I believed that WoW had gotten the balance between PvP and PvE right. I now believe that I was naive in that belief, and that there is no such thing as a balance between PvP and PvE. There will always be predators, gankers, people who seek any advantage to kill other players while being at little or no risk to themselves. I don't think that "fair" PvP is possible within a level-and-gear based RPG world like EQ and WoW.

Out of time. More later.

[Nekojin]

I'm going to have to break this up into several posts, partly because there's a lot of ground to cover, and partly because tethering my phone to give my computer a functional internet connection eats juice like nobody's business. I'll get to the other parts as time allows, but I'm not likely to be completely done until tomorrow some time.

- - - - -

First, a bit of background on me. I've been gaming online since... around 1985. Of course, back then it was BBS sites, not "the internet" (or the World Wide Web, or any of the other names they've tried to slap on it). I've engaged in RMT for financial gain only twice - once was "legal" (Note that I'll use "Legal" and "Illegal" as shorthand in this thread for "With or against the Terms of Service"), once was illegal, and they both happened about the same time, and for much the same reason.

The first incident (the illegal one) was selling 2 million Gold from Gaia Online for ~$140*. I regretted it at the time, but I believe that, all else being equal, I'd probably do it again. You see, I did it because we were looking at being evicted for lack of rent, and this was the fastest way I could think of to raise cash in a hurry.

I learned a valuable lesson in trading while playing Gaia - one that every would-be virtual trader should heed: It's not necessary to rip people off to make a profit. There's ALWAYS people looking to offload things at below market prices in order to get gold (or Zenny, or Creds, or whatever) NOW.

The second incident, the legal one, was a few weeks later. EQ2 had just launched their "Exchange" servers, where RMT was legal within narrow limits (you had to go through Sony's servers, and Sony took a good-sized whack off the top). I figured this might be a way for me to make some money to help with the rent situation, and got an account. In the two months that I played on Bazaar, I found one rare item (a Lv. 15 "twink" robe) worth ~$13, which I used to pay for the second month. I didn't find anything else really worth selling on its own, and I was nowhere near the level I needed to be to start doing some serious churn on my gold. I got bored with it, and moved on.

As a general rule (one that I've only broken once, as mentioned above), I play games by the rules that are set before me. If a company wants to restrict or ban RMT, I won't use it. If they allow RMT, I'll examine the situation before I decide whether or not to jump in. I honestly don't dislike or disrespect game companies who decide that they don't want RMT in their games - it's their playground, I'm only playing in it. But I'm also aware of the fact that not everyone feels the same way, and not everyone has the same ethics with regard to such things.

And now... I'm off to pillage a certain auction house. =¬_¬=

* In order to get up the gold, I sold quite a few high-demand, high-value items, but especially my most prized posession, a Human G-Corp Labcoat. I'd spent months wheeling and dealing** to get one, then abruptly had two, and traded one to get an even rarer and more valuable item. At that time, they were going for around 850k gold each.

** There's a personality test that started making the rounds just over a decade ago, called The Bartle Test that breaks your gaming personality down into four categories - Achiever, Explorer, Socializer, Killer - and rates you independently on the four categories. I rank highly on Explorer, medium on Achiever and Socializer, and low (or zero, sometimes) on Killer. My greatest enjoyment in MMO games are crafting (if the crafting system is robust - WoW's isn't, SWG is still the high mark for that), exploring (again, SWG was great for this, when that spot that is an Uggnaut Outpost this week could be a Womp Rat Nest next week, or empty terrain), and trading. I love to wheel and deal, if the game's player economy is robust enough.

[Andara Bledin]

Note for those waiting for continuance: Nekojin is using the last of his phone's tether charge to get in a little browser gaming. Once it gives up the ghost, he's going to write out the rest of his posts and pop online to get them posted as he finishes.

^-.-^

[HYHYBT]

What I want is for games to remain balanced and fun for all involved instead of this cynical acceptance of capitalism where people can just buy their way to victory over others.

"Fun for all involved" needs to consider that not all people who enjoy a game like the same things about it.