RMT and other gaming conflicts

[Gravekeeper]

"Fun for all involved" needs to consider that not all people who enjoy a game like the same things about it.

And.....what exactly? It should cater to the select few that enjoy losing unfairly? ;p

[Andara Bledin]

And.....what exactly? It should cater to the select few that enjoy losing unfairly? ;p

You know, the longer this debate goes on, the less I understand what you're going on about.

^-.-^

[Gravekeeper]

You know, the longer this debate goes on, the less I understand what you're going on about.

That would probably be because you haven't been reading the thread and have been arguing against what you assume my position to be instead of what it actually is. As evidenced by your counter points which are things I covered pages ago. To the point where you're now seriously using a points I myself made earlier against what you assume my position is.

Neko is at least making an honest, respectful argument for his position and keeping up with mine. While I may not agree with him on everything, I'm pretty sure that differences in personal experience aside, we have a fair amount of common ground.

You on the other hand are attacking the position you made up for me, all the while making condescending remarks.

[Nekojin]

Section the second: Dishonest / unethical behavior in online / multiplayer games

So, we've established that I'm a loon... er, established my credentials with regard to the topic at hand.

Now we move on to some of the meat of the topic: doing things that are against the rules/TOS of a game, or against the common ethics of the players. As I pointed out before, the TOS offenses often get conflated into one of them: Gold-selling. Gold-selling is only one of the problems, but it gets the lion's share of the blame, even when there are other, more probable causes for an displeasing effect that someone is seeing. Auction House prices are too high? Must be the gold-sellers. AH prices too low? Must be the gold-sellers. People twinking their own alts? Gold-sellers! People twinking other people's characters! More gold-sellers! People camping the resources? It's those darn gold-sellers again! Nobody willing to enchant my shit? Damn those gold-sellers for ruining the market! Here's a hint: Gold-sellers aren't directly responsible for any of the above, and are only a possible distant cause (and not even the most likely) for most of them.

But I'm getting ahead of the topic slightly. There are a number of behaviors that are explicitly against the rules in most games. In short, those are: Macro use (AKA Botting), Spamming, outside sales (RMT, gold-selling), and account theft.

In terms of damage to the individual player, account theft is the most damaging, but least likely to happen, and often the victim is treated as being at least partially responsible for having an inadequate password or inadequate security procedures. While account theft was a minor problem in the days of Everquest (but did still happen), it's become more and more prevalent as other methods of generating "illicit" gold have proven to be less efficient. Compromised accounts give the attacker so many opportunities - the resources of the hacked account (and sometimes the hacked account's guild bank!) can be transferred to other accounts, the account can be used to spam, and if the thief is clever enough or the victim foolish enough, the breached account can be an avenue for the thief to gain access to other accounts. Account hacks in WoW skyrocketed shortly after Blizzard locked out "guest" accounts from being able to use most forms of communication, causing the guest accounts to be useless for spamming activity. Account theft is treated the most severely, because it, unlike all of the rest, is an actual, real-world crime.

Macro use is generally considered the most disruptive to the average gamer, as bot scripts have been used for years for everything from killing a coveted static-spawn monster as soon as it appeared (common in EQ, not so much in more modern MMOs), to harvesting resource nodes on a set schedule, to many other behaviors that are less obvious to the outside observer. Most games ban this outright; I only know of one game that explicitly allows it, but with limits (A Tale in the Desert (ATITD) allows monitored bot use - as long as you're actually at your keyboard, it's OK. If it's unattended, it's a bannable offense). This is generally considered unfair play for a number of reasons - sufficiently advanced scripts can have perfect timing, don't get tired, and don't need bio breaks. A well-designed script could, ideally, run for 24 hours a day without a hitch. A macro designed to play a reflex game can do it without fail; one designed to play a pattern recognition game can similarly perform flawlessly (again, see ATITD for examples of both). For those reasons, macro use is usually against the rules.

Spamming is the most obvious and least damaging of the behaviors; it is considered a nuisance and disruptive, but is ultimately a minor problem, in and of itself. The spamming person can be muted/ignored, the channel they're in can be left, and the spammer can be reported. Spamming is frequently evidence of other unacceptable behavior going on, particularly gold-selling, but is also often just an example of antisocial nitwits demonstrating their ability to defy convention.

And finally, we come to gold-selling, the main point of this thread. The least directly obvious of the offenses, and the hardest of them all to police. The actual offense is simple enough - the trading of in-game cash for real-world cash. The complaint is usually that buying gold gives the buyer some advantage that the non-gold-buying player doesn't have. But modern games are either designed to explicitly use gold-selling (or, in the case of a game like EVE Online, retooled to allow it), or are designed to severely reduce the impact of gold-selling. What good is it to have 10 million gold if the only things you can easily spend it on are either cosmetic (new show pets, new mount appearances), or one-time purchases (Cold Weather Flying, Flight Master's License)? Well, it's still possible to use it for other things, but they frequently either have limited utility duration (Epic gems that become useless as of the next expansion, anyone?), or require significant negotiation to achieve (buying a slot on a top-tier raid team, with a promise of certain loot). And, once all is said and done, no amount of gold can get certain achievements for you. It doesn't matter how shiny your gear is; if you don't have the time and fortitude to practice rigorously, you'll never reach the upper tiers in Arena PvP.

Similarly, WoW (in particular) has been going out of their way to make many of the top items in WoW only achievable by the people putting in the effort to do ALL of the work - you simply cannot buy Sulfuros or Shadowmourne, for example, no matter how you try to work the angles.

Which is not to say that gold-selling/gold-buying is pointless, but rather that there are multiple different angles for attacking it, if you don't want to allow it in your game, and companies like Blizzard ARE taking steps in that direction. Overt post-facto policing can only do so much; the changes need to come from the player base, ultimately. If nobody wants to buy illicit gold, then it doesn't matter how many gold-sellers there are or how much gold they have.

There are other forms of behavior that are legal, but socially frowned upon - camping, monster-killing (hurting someone just enough so that the monster that they're fighting can kill them, causing them to suffer PvE penalties rather than PvP penalties), grief-teleporting (used to be epidemic in City of Heroes), training (deliberately leading monsters to other players), click-blocking (standing in the way of clickable items, both for nuisance value and PvP flagging), AFKing in PvP scenarios, spawn-camping/base-camping/flight-point-camping... the list goes on and on. There's a veritable litany of ways for people to be antisocial to one another that fall outside the accepted conventions of fair-play PvP. But I think I'll leave that alone for now. This post is long enough as it is already.

[Gravekeeper]

Thus we come back around to my point about goldselling not meshing with a traditionally designed MMO.

Goldselling and RMT can be considered symptoms of a problem with game mechanics, yes. However, part of the problem there is that the disease ( MMO's are a time sink ) is an intergral part of the game ( It's an MMO, of course its a time sink ). But again, moving forward, thats a problem that should be addressed through game mechanics instead of an acceptance of RMT. As I said before, I don't have an issue with RMT being in place for cosmetics ( TF2 ) or convenience ( LOTRO ). Only when its used as a means of gaining an advantage over others who are actually playing the game.

As I've said numerous times now my core problem here is introducing an external real world imbalance into a game's balance. Life ain't fair, but game's should be. That's why they're called games. Fairness and balance are ideals a game designer strives for ( I know I do ). Disrupting that balance just makes for a bad game where someone's getting unfairly assfucked by someone else. Everyone should have the same tools for assfucking and equal assfucking potential.

Guild Wars 2 appears to be combating it by tying more of a player's "earning" power into forms of currency that cannot be traded in any way. So there's nothing for goldsellers to sell. This is a pretty good step towards maintaining a more traditional MMORPG without having it set upon by farming bots, spam, etc.

EVE handles goldselling quite well because EVE is not a traditional MMO and "goldselling" is achieved through a means that does not actually add massive injuctions of funds to the game. You don't buy gold, you buy an item you can sell for gold. An item which loses value the more times you purchase it. So you only get gold that is already in the economy in the hands of another player. A player who is only going to buy so many of that item at any given time. A player who wasn't able to bot farm it up 24/7 because EVE players fucking love bot ganking to the point where other people will actually pay you for every one you gank. -.-

Its honestly been pissing me off for years how many new MMOs come out and make absolutely no adjustments or preperations to handle goldselling, then act surprised when goldsellers flood the game and drive the players insane. Not just in the game design, but in their GM moderation and customer service. They're never prepared and are always taken off guard. Like its not going to happen to their game so why should they make any preperations for it?

From a design and programming perspective, its not *that* hard to combat these issues or turn them around completely and kill the demand like EVE did. But the industry has basically been staring at WoW's tits for the last 5 or 6 years and is incapable of thinking for themselves. Content to just make their own pair of tits that look like WoW's and hope it somehow comes out better than WoW's tits.

[Andara Bledin]

Games should be entertaining. Whether that requires fairness or not is not obviously varies from person to person or this thread wouldn't even exist.

Plus, even with RMT, the game is still fair. You have just as much opportunity to buy items as the next guy (whether someone has more cash is as irrelevant as someone else having more time - and if one is relevant, then so is the other).

^-.-^

[Gravekeeper]

Games should be entertaining. Whether that requires fairness or not is not obviously varies from person to person or this thread wouldn't even exist.

Plus, even with RMT, the game is still fair. You have just as much opportunity to buy items as the next guy (whether someone has more cash is as irrelevant as someone else having more time - and if one is relevant, then so is the other).

And missing the point completely while either ignoring or not reading parts of this thread.

Again. -.-

[Nekojin]

Part the Third: Truth and Consequences

Interesting tidbit: Chinese farmers do not use the Auction House at all (unless buying things for personal use). Why not? Because the accounts that they use are shared across 2 or 3 shifts, and if they leave something on the AH (or the AH takes a bit longer to deliver the payoff, an event that is not unheard of), then the next person on the account may end up taking the money, and the credit, for the sale. If/when a Chinese farmer wants to offload their goods near the end of their shift, they'll typically go to their nearest faction capital, advertise in /trade to sell the item in question at ~20% lower than the going rate, and typically sell out in minutes. Their impact on the server economy for any given day is typically minimal, and their impact on Auction House prices essentially nonexistent.

- - - - -

Combatting gold-selling - specifically gold-selling, separate from the other "illegal" behaviors I mentioned in the previous post - is difficult. You have several elements to deal with.

* Procedures put into place to combat botting and spamming contribute to the public perception that illegal behavior is being dealt with. This perception, in and of itself, deters some gold-selling.
* Minimal procedures beyond this - we'll call the cost for these procedures 1H (one Handwavy amount) - is sufficient to stop most gold-selling, dealing with around 85% of the would-be gold-sellers (we'll call them the "dumb ones.")
* To combat gold-selling beyond this point, it costs more and more, while achieving less and less. An additional 1H might net you 5% more, then the next 1H gets another 1%, then it takes 3H to get another percent, and so on. It's an escalating scale which drives costs into the stratosphere for minimal additional effect.
* Furthermore, after a certain point, you start getting false positives - people who are detected and punished as though they've committed the act you're hunting for, but have not. Having any significant amount of false positives is VERY bad for the community image of a company.

With all of this said, it's imperative for any gaming company to acknowledge this (at least internally), and realize that:
1.) If you choose to disallow RMT in your game, you must police it. Rules that are not enforced are worse than no rules at all. A perception that the admins do nothing to stop players who are breaking the TOS is one of the surest ways to kill a game.
2.) If you do choose to enforce the rules, understand that this is a cost center with no offset. The more vigorously you enforce the rules, the more it costs.
3.) No matter how vigorously you enforce the rules, you will never get 100% of the gold-sellers without having significant collateral damage (unfair banning of players). No matter what procedures or policies you put into effect, there will be some clever people who slip the net.
4.) If you are making a new game, and trying to decide whether to use RMT, consider that money that people spend on off-site RMT is money that the players are willing to pay in order to play your game... but you're not seeing any of it. It is as much an example of underserved customers as piracy is.
5.) Banning RMT is a cost center that never pays for itself; it must be funded through other methods. Building RMT into your game allows it to stop being a cost center, and potentially be a profit center that can be utilized to crack down on other things that are still against the TOS and/or break the game (as an example, Diablo 3's RMAH, when it goes live, is likely to fund the ongoing battle against duping and hacking of items).

This is not to say that using RMT is an obvious, no-brainer choice for any new game designer. Incorporating RMT into a game is often viewed with suspicion, distrust, and outright hatred by some of the potential player base. It will drive away some people who would otherwise play your game, either because they object to RMT conceptually, or because they do not trust you to administrate it fairly.

It's not an easy problem. There are no hard and fast answers, only pitfalls and drawbacks for the unwary, no matter how you go with it.

[Gravekeeper]

Interesting tidbit: Chinese farmers do not use the Auction House at all (unless buying things for personal use).

Where are you getting your information from? They're all *over* the AH on every WoW server I've played on. Even a cursory google search will net you forum threads bitching about them being on the AH. People are already even bitching about what they're going to do to Diablo 3's AH if constraints aren't put into place.

[Nekojin]

Where are you getting your information from?

One of my guildmates met one that spoke a little English, and struck up somewhat of a conversation. He explained how their system works - one character was controlled by several people, and you had no say on whether you got a specific character back again. What you earn during your "shift" was tallied, and if you had anything that was in reserve somewhere (bids on an item on the AH or open auctions, especially), the guy coming after you could take it and add it to his earnings for his shift.

As a result, nobody from his crew would sell on the AH - they'd advertise in /trade at below AH prices, and sell person-to-person. That way, they'd also get the full value, without any auctioneer cut.

They're all *over* the AH on every WoW server I've played on. Even a cursory google search will net you forum threads bitching about them being on the AH.

People claiming that Chinese farmers are on the AH is not the same thing as Chinese farmers actually being on the AH. Like I've said repeatedly - it's a convenient scapegoat.

People are already even bitching about what they're going to do to Diablo 3's AH if constraints aren't put into place.

Let them. Within an RMT-allowed environment, there's little, if any, difference between a Chinese farmer and any other power-gamer exploiting the system.

[Gravekeeper]

One of my guildmates met one that spoke a little English, and struck up somewhat of a conversation. He explained how their system works - one character was controlled by several people, and you had no say on whether you got a specific character back again. What you earn during your "shift" was tallied, and if you had anything that was in reserve somewhere (bids on an item on the AH or open auctions, especially), the guy coming after you could take it and add it to his earnings for his shift.

Thats only one person at one company in what is a very very large industry. Not to mention the crime gangs and prisoner labour camps. >.>

People claiming that Chinese farmers are on the AH is not the same thing as Chinese farmers actually being on the AH. Like I've said repeatedly - it's a convenient scapegoat.

And claiming they aren't on the AH because a friend of yours spoke to one person in an industry that likely employs over a million at this point isn't really a heck of a lot better. ;p

Let them. Within an RMT-allowed environment, there's little, if any, difference between a Chinese farmer and any other power-gamer exploiting the system.

Actually they had one rather legit complaint. An MMO's economy exists within a data vacuum. You can buy something for 500 gold and resell it for 3000 an hour later with no one the wiser because there's no sales receipt to be referenced as a market value. Market value is constantly in flux and can be exploited.

Allowing that is fine for virtual items with virtual currency. But a RMAH is a different beast entirely. With an RMAH, Blizzard needs to give the players real world market tools. You need to be able to see historic item value over time in order to make any sort of informed purchase ( Ironically, EVE lets you see this in game so market value is stable ). Otherwise the market value will be all over the place and people will be pissed over being swindled left and right. You can exploit that sort of data vacuum.

Friend of mine use to do it all the time in WoW. Made disgusting amounts of gold by manipulating market value. Not a huge deal with virtual currency. But real money? Wouldn't be pretty.

[Nekojin]

Actually they had one rather legit complaint. An MMO's economy exists within a data vacuum. You can buy something for 500 gold and resell it for 3000 an hour later with no one the wiser because there's no sales receipt to be referenced as a market value. Market value is constantly in flux and can be exploited.

Allowing that is fine for virtual items with virtual currency. But a RMAH is a different beast entirely. With an RMAH, Blizzard needs to give the players real world market tools. You need to be able to see historic item value over time in order to make any sort of informed purchase ( Ironically, EVE lets you see this in game so market value is stable ). Otherwise the market value will be all over the place and people will be pissed over being swindled left and right. You can exploit that sort of data vacuum.

Friend of mine use to do it all the time in WoW. Made disgusting amounts of gold by manipulating market value. Not a huge deal with virtual currency. But real money? Wouldn't be pretty.

Very difficult to do with Diablo 3. With the exception of raw commodities (Gems, crafting pages, gold), there's no historical model to follow, because you don't have a consistent item pool. Even with the exact same "Unique" (Legendary) item, the stats are all over the place.

Take the legendary Buriza-Do Kyanon, for example. Because of variation in stats, its DPS can range anywhere from 110 to 122. Its secondary stats are all over the map. There's no way you can rationally do a historical pattern even on Legendaries, and even much less so with Rares, which have random names based loosely on one of the item's traits.

[Gravekeeper]

D3's RMAH really seems like a bit of a disaster waiting to happen to be honest.

[Nekojin]

And claiming they aren't on the AH because a friend of yours spoke to one person in an industry that likely employs over a million at this point isn't really a heck of a lot better. ;p

WoW's active player base is only 10 million. How many gold-farmers do you think can be profitable? Do you really think that Chinese companies make up over 10% of the player base?

This is why I keep calling it scapegoating - you're attributing near-mythic traits to them, without seriously evaluating all of the (sometimes contradictory) claims being made.

D3's RMAH really seems like a bit of a disaster waiting to happen to be honest.

Disaster for whom, and in what sense?

[Gravekeeper]

This is why I keep calling it scapegoating - you're attributing near-mythic traits to them, without seriously evaluating all of the (sometimes contradictory) claims being made.

Okay, seriously, enough of this.

Did I say that every last one of them was just playing WoW? And the industry had over 400-500k employees in China alone as of 2008 and was rapidly growing both as a legit industry and as an undergrown criminal industry. Not to mention prison labour camps. If you had done even cursory research on this topic instead of repeatedly affirming that I'm the one somehow tragically confused while your personal experience is gospel you would know this.

Disaster for whom, and in what sense?

We'll find out shortly I imagine. I sincerely don't believe Blizzard has all their bases covered for this.