Russia not Suspending "Anti-Gay Propaganda" Law for 2014 Olympics

[Rageaholic]

Just goes to show you that you don't need religion to attempt to justify bigoted laws.

[daleduke17]

I retract the paragraph starting with "I find it ridiculous..." That was written in a moment of frustration and disgust. For obvious reasons, I find gay rights to be an extremely touchy subject, and pounce on things that seem like a slight when they really aren't.

Dale, I apologize for assuming that you would be as self-absorbed and idiotic as to actually hold the position that I suggested you did. I am truly sorry for implying that. I do honestly have more respect for you than that, it was a kneejerk reaction.

You're good. My thought process is you respect the house rules, no matter how fucked up they are, or you don't go to that person's house. You can ask that something not be done while you're there, but if the owner says "tough titties" then it is either listen to the house owner, or leave/don't go.

So, I'm not some anti-gay, racist xenophobic hillbilly.

EDIT TO ADD: Also, I feel if you are a guest, then homosexuality is one of those subjects you just don't bring up (like religion, politics, etc).

[Ginger Tea]

IANAL, I have not read up on the law in point, nor am I Russian or have any long / short term goals to visit.

I guess the 'good part' about the games being held there, is the fact that the world is aware of this law and its repercussions for the outside world wishing to visit, but if change does not happen once the games are gone and the worlds sporting eyes are off the country, no one will care too much if the law gets upgraded to a capital offence.

The Olympic committee is between a rock and a hard place, it can not force a country to change it's laws, in fact might have to change events to comply with the host nation.
Can't think of any specific sports, all I can think of would be a frivolous beerfest event as part of the games not being allowed in countries like Saudi Arabia where alcohol is very much an arrestable thing.
When Russia was hosting during the cold war America chose not to go, thus loosing out on the chance to bring home a fair few medallions, though if they had have gone a bronze might not even be on the cards.
Although I agree to an extent with Wolfies post about what if Russia would be up against a gay opponent who could not compete due to being arrested at passport control or just denied entry, this only works if it was 1 on 1 with no other competitors, there would be more Judo athletes from around the world, sure the first two seeds might be a Gay American and a Hetro or well closeted Russian, but having the American not there doesn't automatically mean the Russian wins, there are dozzens of other Judo matches held to get to the final.

If it was a chess championship that was specifically between two people say the grand final or a showcase match, then yes the visiting nationalist would not be allowed to compete, but if I was the opponent, I would not take it as a victory, a forfeit is never a good victory and the crowd would not be too pleased to see one person sit down at the table, move a pawn and then be declared the winner.
This can also apply to boxing matches where there is not a tournament progression to this point, or if there was it was held in another country.

Having the match else where gives the sport or chess match or whatever a chance to play out, though a football team playing an away match not wishing to forfeit crucial points might play with a weaker 'hetro' team, FIFA although sympathetic to the cause, would probably say "look Russia is part of the Euro cup, if you don't go you don't play and loose x points, sorry."
But I also don't think our governments should then turn around and bar the Russian team from entering the country for the home match out of spite.
Unlike the boycott of South Africa for so long during Apartheid Russia has sporting teams in European and World events and organizers would probably award points to Russia for home victories when opponents refuse to travel than try and stick their oar in the political arena.

[Hyena Dandy]

EDIT TO ADD: Also, I feel if you are a guest, then homosexuality is one of those subjects you just don't bring up (like religion, politics, etc).

That I disagree with. If it's okay for someone else to mention having a girlfriend, it's okay for me to mention having a boyfriend.

[D_Yeti_Esquire]

Hyena, and I'd agree in my house. But it's like mentioning ones atheism in the house of a devout Christian or sitting in a house of Democrats and praising George Bush. It's not that the position is invalid or doesn't deserve a voice in a broader context, it's a question of what is an appropriate conversation to have when someone provides you hospitality. It's also highly debatable, but there you go.

As for the games themselves, I think there are perhaps two things that might help fix the problem. The first and I think especially for the Hockey teams where many have been a part of the You Can Play Project, is you get Russian Law Enforcement to agree to suspend that law in relation to competing athletes in writing. If countries are going to be risking their athletes arrest, there's ample reason for many Olympic Teams to avoid the games just as a risk management issue.

Second, people should probably redirect their anger towards Russia itself and not the Russian Olympic games. IF it means that much, pay for advocacy etc. in that country. Perhaps if there are projects that get gay people out of Russia while this is going on, support that. But the Olympics themselves, I remind myself that these are things that happen only every four years and many athletes will be able to compete at their top level only once although many might see two opportunities. I'd respect that and still watch the games if that's what you do. It's not the competing athletes fault and unless you can prove to me how a boycott fixes anything, I think it's hurting the wrong people.

[Greenday]

Hyena, and I'd agree in my house. But it's like mentioning ones atheism in the house of a devout Christian or sitting in a house of Democrats and praising George Bush. It's not that the position is invalid or doesn't deserve a voice in a broader context, it's a question of what is an appropriate conversation to have when someone provides you hospitality. It's also highly debatable, but there you go.

So explain why we should go to someone's house whose rules are ridiculous and absurd? Wouldn't it make more sense to just not go to prove a point? I feel like denying them a large source of income would be a good message to send instead of throwing money at them.

[Ree]

It's a difficult situation, because it's very hard to come off as not appearing to be anti-gay or homophobic.

I think the Russian laws are disgusting.
I just fail to see how sexuality is relevant to a sporting event.

These athletes have been training for years to accomplish the goal of competing in the Olympics, and now, all that they have worked for and have accomplished is being completely overshadowed by the media circus surrounding the laws against homosexuality.

I find that so unfair to the athletes.

I totally get that openly gay people who attend or participate in the events are putting themselves in jeopardy of being arrested.

Nobody will bat an eye if a man and woman walk down the street, taking in the sights, and holding hands, but if a gay couple does it, they are at risk.
That isn't right. I get it.

I just don't understand how the sexual orientation of the athletes becomes relevant in the competition. As far as I know, athletes are usually separated from family and friends and spend their time in special housing ste up for them.
It's not as if they will have their same sex partners living there. (Maybe I'm wrong about that.)
I just don't see how their sexuality will influence how they compete.

The whole situation makes me sad, that Russia has regressed backwards with civil rights, while many countries in the rest of the world are moving forward.

I just feel very bad for the athletes.

[D_Yeti_Esquire]

So explain why we should go to someone's house whose rules are ridiculous and absurd? Wouldn't it make more sense to just not go to prove a point? I feel like denying them a large source of income would be a good message to send instead of throwing money at them.

Ok, the metaphor is now a bit mixed. That bit was specifically about being a guest.

But in this case, I think I'd keep in mind that these athletes have trained for four years to get to this point. If they're that politically inclined, sure they can make a point. There is a rather large cost to them for doing so however.

[Greenday]

I just fail to see how sexuality is relevant to a sporting event.

I just don't understand how the sexual orientation of the athletes becomes relevant in the competition. As far as I know, athletes are usually separated from family and friends and spend their time in special housing set up for them.
It's not as if they will have their same sex partners living there. (Maybe I'm wrong about that.)

Because this isn't just some sports competition. This is a huge convention for world political cooperation and peace. It's about countries all over the world getting together for a feel-good event. This is a political event first and foremost.

Their sexual orientation is not relevant to competing. But the Olympics is a well known orgy. It's a ton of super in-shape people getting the freak on. This applies to every single Olympics in modern history. But let's say beyond just the sex, someone wants their boyfriend/girlfriend to come see them. I'd imagine that if your partner travels from the other side of the world, you'd like to spend some intimate time together. According to Russian law, that'd be grounds for prison.

[Ree]

But let's say beyond just the sex, someone wants their boyfriend/girlfriend to come see them. I'd imagine that if your partner travels from the other side of the world, you'd like to spend some intimate time together. According to Russian law, that'd be grounds for prison.

As I say, I do get that.
I also understand the whole "thing" about the gravity and importance of the Olympics on the political agenda.

I just get upset that these athletes who have been training for so long are now being put into turmoil because of the single issue of sexuality.

[Greenday]

As I say, I do get that.
I also understand the whole "thing" about the gravity and importance of the Olympics on the political agenda.

I just get upset that these athletes who have been training for so long are now being put into turmoil because of the single issue of sexuality.

It's no different from the Olympics that were held in Nazi Germany in 1936.

Life isn't fair. Human rights is a more important issue than competing in games.

[Andara Bledin]

Human rights is a more important issue than competing in games.

This.

Being an athlete, at that level, is of necessity a transitory thing. Sexual orientation is an inherent part of what makes a person who they are.

Yes, it's utterly unfair that these athletes, who have often spent the vast majority of their lives in training and many of whom will only have one chance at competing in the Olympics should lose that chance.

However, whether they compete or boycott, they will go down in history. And, when you think about it, the boycott for human rights is a much shorter list, and there's no competition to get on it.

[Hyena Dandy]

. But it's like mentioning ones atheism in the house of a devout Christian or sitting in a house of Democrats and praising George Bush.

If the people in the house of Christians are praying, and they aren't assholes, then you should be able to choose not to pray, and say "Sorry, I'm an atheist." If you're praising George Bush because they started the conversation, again, that's no issue.

You should never have to LIE. And, in essence, that's what I'd have to do. I'd have to pretend that I don't have a boyfriend, or that I'm not gay. That's lying. Just like, if you're an atheist, and they say it's time for everyone to pray, you shouldn't have to pray.

Second, people should probably redirect their anger towards Russia itself and not the Russian Olympic games. IF it means that much, pay for advocacy etc. in that country.

You're missing the point in a big way. The Olympics bring a lot of money and prestige to the country. The idea of calling for a boycott is that we shouldn't be celebrating a country that does this shit. It's to put international pressure on Russia to change things. The anger is at Russia. That they're allowed to do this without consequence is PART OF WHAT WE'RE ANGRY ABOUT.

[HYHYBT]

On the house guest thing: mentioning a boyfriend at the same point and in the same way that a straight male would mention a girlfriend isn't really talking about homosexuality, just as saying that you can't stay long because you have choir practice at seven isn't really talking about religion. That doesn't mean the host might not *react* badly, if they're so inclined, but it's not at all the same thing as trying to get into a discussion on the subject.

[D_Yeti_Esquire]

Ok, I get that it's an important issue to you but if you think I missed the point, you're not paying attention. And I see it a lot with GLBT debates that if someone doesn't get "on point", that's the accusation that gets made. No, I get it. I disagree.

I get why people would choose to boycott. But like all boycotts, I'm asking what is your skin in the game? Everyone's making a big deal that athletes should throw away years of training to make a point. I'm not seeing the massive mobilization to create advocacy in Russia however. What I'm actually seeing is an incredibly privileged take that because the public gets cranky, people should be forced to sacrifice their livelihood or that other Americans/Brits/Australians should be negatively effected by it.

Well, I'm not shocked these athletes wouldn't quit en masse. I wouldn't expect anyone to, GLBT, ally, or other. What is being asked of them is tantamount to asking anyone of us to waste four years. For all but the most politically active or most personally effected, that's not a remotely small thing to ask. BTW - just a general point of finance, actually most countries lose money on Olympic events. It is a prestige event, not a profit center. Russia will not make less money if Americans tune out. Those contracts are signed and the tickets are purchased. NBC, local affiliates, and local athletes will lose money. I hate, I hate, I hate lazy advocacy. Especially when it hurts the wrong people.

On the guest thing, I agree really. But I'm a big believer in two people control any conversation. If I am aware what someone's hot buttons are, I am very much in control of what I choose to push. We can blame the host for irrationality 'n such, but I can't push hot buttons and then blame them.